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File:9d55e0162676946f655bbf0a13….jpg (2.85 MB,1240x1748)

 No.19500

I've been waiting YEARS to post this, and I think it's finally time to do so:
April 2003, A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy
https://web.archive.org/web/20110807032541/http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
Phenomenal title, wouldn't you agree?

>Now, this story has been written many times. It's actually frustrating to see how many times it's been written. You'd hope that at some point that someone would write it down, and they often do, but what then doesn't happen is other people don't read it.

Shirky's speech draws from a book called Experiences in Groups by W. R. Bion. He starts off by comparing the internet to a group of neurotics that Bion was taking care of, which were "conspiring to defeat therapy," spontaneously and without obvious coordination. You see, dear >>19472, the topics of /r9k/, politics and youtubers are actually part of a basic group of topics that groups naturally drift towards. It's, I would say, a mixture of salacious talk and an attack on the outsider, two of the three topics Shirky brings up.
But you know what? Today I don't feel like writing an essay, I simply don't. So, I'm just gonna leave here some of its beautiful quotes (without green):


The first is sex talk, what he called, in his mid-century prose, "A group met for pairing off." And what that means is, the group conceives of its purpose as the hosting of flirtatious or salacious talk or emotions passing between pairs of members.
You go on IRC and you scan the channel list, and you say "Oh, I know what that group is about, because I see the channel label." And you go into the group, you will also almost invariably find that it's about sex talk as well. Not necessarily overt. But that is always in scope in human conversations, according to Bion. That is one basic pattern that groups can always devolve into, away from the sophisticated purpose and towards one of these basic purposes.


The third pattern Bion identified: Religious veneration. The nomination and worship of a religious icon or a set of religious tenets. The religious pattern is, essentially, we have nominated something that's beyond critique. You can see this pattern on the Internet any day you like. Go onto a Tolkien newsgroup or discussion forum, and try saying "You know, The Two Towers is a little dull. I mean loooong. We didn't need that much description about the forest, because it's pretty much the same forest all the way."
Try having that discussion. On the door of the group it will say: "This is for discussing the works of Tolkien." Go in and try and have that discussion.
Now, in some places people say "Yes, but it needed to, because it had to convey the sense of lassitude," or whatever. But in most places you'll simply be flamed to high heaven, because you're interfering with the religious text.


And then, as time sets in, difficulties emerge. In this case, one of the difficulties was occasioned by the fact that one of the institutions that got hold of some modems was a high school. And who, in 1978, was hanging out in the room with the computer and the modems in it, but the boys of that high school. And the boys weren't terribly interested in sophisticated adult conversation. They were interested in fart jokes. They were interested in salacious talk. They were interested in running amok and posting four-letter words and nyah-nyah-nyah, all over the bulletin board.
And the adults who had set up Communitree were horrified, and overrun by these students. The place that was founded on open access had too much open access, too much openness. They couldn't defend themselves against their own users. The place that was founded on free speech had too much freedom. They had no way of saying "No, that's not the kind of free speech we meant."


Geoff Cohen has a great observation about this. He said "The likelihood that any unmoderated group will eventually get into a flame-war about whether or not to have a moderator approaches one as time increases." As a group commits to its existence as a group, and begins to think that the group is good or important, the chance that they will begin to call for additional structure, in order to defend themselves from themselves, gets very, very high.


The web turned us all into size queens for six or eight years there. It was loosely coupled, it was stateless, it scaled like crazy, and everything became about How big can you get? "How many users does Yahoo have? How many customers does Amazon have? How many readers does MSNBC have?" And the answer could be "Really a lot!" But it could only be really a lot if you didn't require MSNBC to be answering those readers, and you didn't require those readers to be talking to one another.
The downside of going for size and scale above all else is that the dense, interconnected pattern that drives group conversation and collaboration isn't supportable at any large scale. Less is different -- small groups of people can engage in kinds of interaction that large groups can't. And so we blew past that interesting scale of small groups. Larger than a dozen, smaller than a few hundred, where people can actually have these conversational forms that can't be supported when you're talking about tens of thousands or millions of users, at least in a single group.

 No.19502


 No.19503

>>19502
I'm metard, I meta.

 No.19504

Andy wanting a bpd gf and making fun of "jestermaxxers" is not r9k

 No.19505

>>19504
It's not /r9k/, it's about /r9k/ and adjacent stuff.

 No.19506

>>19500
>You go on IRC and you scan the channel list, and you say "Oh, I know what that group is about, because I see the channel label." And you go into the group, you will also almost invariably find that it's about sex talk as well. Not necessarily overt. But that is always in scope in human conversations, according to Bion. That is one basic pattern that groups can always devolve into, away from the sophisticated purpose and towards one of these basic purposes.
This actually happened to me the other day. I wandered into one of the linux mint channels on libera.chat the other day and found the conversation monopolized by some guy who would not shut about about perverted stuff, and how perverted he is, and how he is also an ABDL. Apparently he was some sort of persistent conversation monopolizer there who gets banned all the time.

 No.19511

>>19506
some people are just walking force multipliers

 No.19516

>>19506
>also an ABDL
That's fucking gross, how do people get to the point where they have no shame?

 No.19525

>>19516
Addiction

 No.19532

File:[SubsPlease] Utawarerumono….jpg (115.11 KB,1280x720)

>>19500
>The religious pattern is, essentially, we have nominated something that's beyond critique

 No.20155

this is actually a really interesting read.
Read it everyone.

 No.20156

>>20155
Thoughts, opinions?

 No.20157

File:1319456e963c86947f777e77b0….gif (1.99 MB,400x400)

>>20156
I'm not writing an essay this is just my opinions as I read it:
Part 1 is something that we (as a group) can agree with, because I've seen it in my own actions with having an external enemy.
Part 2 is alright, kinda lost the point on that and if someone could explain it more laymans terms I would be quite happy.
Oh. I get it:
> Members are different than users. A pattern will arise in which there is some group of users that cares more than average about the integrity and success of the group as a whole. And that becomes your core group, Art Kleiner's phrase for "the group within the group that matters most."


I don't know what I was supposed to get out of that because I agree with most of what he's saying because it already happened.

 No.20158

File:4157958982bd3e7f73599e4267….jpg (372.69 KB,2048x1448)

Oh well fuck me running
Should have just read the abstract first before heading ass first into this.
Basically yeah, I have no real strong opinions on it because I can see that it is evident already through the communities that exist now on the web.

Goddammit MGS2 is probably the most apt game in the series, I don't think I'll be able to explain it properly though but you know the message of MGS2 and like, the one scene with the AI Colonel talking about how communities splintering and all that. Very apt stuff

 No.21593

>>20157
I think a good chunk of its value lies in how prescient and well-articulated it is, or rather how little things have changed over the last twenty years. For example:
>It's very difficult to coordinate a conference call, because people can't see one another, which makes it hard to manage the interrupt logic. In Joi's conference call, the interrupt logic got moved to the chat room. People would type "Hand," and the moderator of the conference call will then type "You're speaking next," in the chat. So the conference call flowed incredibly smoothly.
This is something platforms like Google Meet and Zoom only implemented as a feature during the pandemic, the ability to visibly raise your hand and to notify other people of it.

This one's even more interesting:
>On alt.folklore.urban, the discussion group about urban folklore on Usenet, there was a group of people who hung out there and got to be friends. And they came to care about the existence of AFU, to the point where, because Usenet made no distinction between members in good standing and drive-by users, they set up a mailing list called The Old Hats. The mailing list was for meta-discussion, discussion about AFU, so they could coordinate efforts formally if they were going to troll someone or flame someone or ignore someone, on the mailing list.
Not an alien thing, I'd say, how "the members in good standing will find one another and be recognized to one another" as he states a few lines below.

And that's the other broad point he makes: there WILL be a core community, and you WILL have to manage it. There's still a lot of people who think it's bad to favor it over "low-tier" users or however you want to call them, but he actually argues very strongly that the core must be able to ensure its continued existence, to the point that takes a radical stance against anonymity and in favor of barriers to participation for the sake of social cohesion. This sentences encapsulates his message:
>The user of social software is the group, not the individual.
It's not only the Communitree example where outsiders unfairly threatened the group, there's another where Chinese shot down the proposal for a news group about Tibetan culture, for obvious reasons:
>Now, everyone could see that this was the wrong answer. The people who wanted a place to discuss Tibetan culture should have it. That was the core group. But because the one person/one vote model on Usenet said "Anyone who's on Usenet gets to vote on any group," sufficiently contentious groups could simply be voted away.

It's not rare for Anonymous to freak out when a couple people pop up with verboten vocabulary, and then make sweeping generalizations because he can't tell who's who. In the ensuing meta threads he may try to prove his authority by bringing up as many valid signifiers as possible, to back up his opinions. Such an occurrence wouldn't be nearly as common if he simply had an account, as Shirky prescribes. But, that brings its own host of issues, and we shouldn't uncritically accept his anti-anonymity stance. It'd just remake the known weaknesses of other sites.

This part is worth bringing up too:
>Now, this pulls against the sense that we've had since the early psychological writings about the Internet. "Oh, on the Internet we're all going to be changing identities and genders like we change our socks."
>And you see things like the Kaycee Nicole story, where a woman in Kansas pretended to be a high school student, and then because the invented high school student's friends got so emotionally involved, she then tried to kill the Kaycee Nicole persona off. "Oh, she's got cancer and she's dying and it's all very tragic." And of course, everyone wanted to fly to meet her. So then she sort of panicked and vanished. And a bunch of places on the Internet, particularly the MetaFilter community, rose up to find out what was going on, and uncovered the hoax. It was sort of a distributed detective movement.
>Now a number of people point to this and say "See, I told you about that identity thing!" But the Kaycee Nicole story is this: changing your identity is really weird. And when the community understands that you've been doing it and you're faking, that is seen as a huge and violent transgression. And they will expend an astonishing amount of energy to find you and punish you. So identity is much less slippery than the early literature would lead us to believe.


Also, if you liked this you should read LambdaMOO Takes a New Direction and A Rape in Cyberspace, from 1992, even further back. They're two perspectives on the same events: a community grows too big, mods feel like leaving it to its own devices, but one day a troll appears and people have to figure out how to deal with him, written one from the mod PoV and the other from a user's perspective:
https://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/cs8113h_98_spring/LTAND.html
https://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/bungle_vv.html
It touches on a looooot of stuff.


Two more quotes I'd like to add:
>The normal experience of social software is failure. If you go into Yahoo groups and you map out the subscriptions, it is, unsurprisingly, a power law. There's a small number of highly populated groups, a moderate number of moderately populated groups, and this long, flat tail of failure. And the failure is inevitably more than 50% of the total mailing lists in any category. So it's not like a cake recipe. There's nothing you can do to make it come out right every time.
And:
>That's part of the problem that the John Hegel theory of community -- community leads to content, which leads to commerce -- never worked. Because lo and behold, no matter who came onto the Clairol chat boards, they sometimes wanted to talk about things that weren't Clairol products.
>"But we paid for this! This is the Clairol site!" Doesn't matter. The users are there for one another. They may be there on hardware and software paid for by you, but the users are there for one another.

 No.21764

The board was doing fine, retard.

 No.21951

Well, I think that was a very appropriate example of Shirky's point, in a mangled, ragtag way.

 No.22019

Autism

 No.22020


 No.22050

That was a fun day, when anon discovered what the maidenless scene had mutated into




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