Think this part of whiplash was the most spiteful and completely malicious move by Fletcher. Everything else you could say had some positive, potentially misguided, meaning behind it, but with Upswingin it was clearly just Fletcher trying to get back at Neiman for the lawsuit. Even now I'm kinda torn between whether to say Fletcher went too far, or he was a madman with sense. Since he did nearly cause Neiman to completely give up on music altogether and probably would've lead him to having a ruined life because of what the stress did to him during his years at Shaffer. But, at the same time it's what lead to Neiman practicing his heart out to impress Fletcher and ultimately why he had the balls to pull the stunt he did at the end which could be interpreted as making his career. Ultimately, the suicide is still on Fletcher so he by some objective metric did take his methods too far, but was it worth it to make Neiman a success? Maybe, or maybe Neiman kills himself too.

Bocchi for the next month:

>>85254
I fear poor Bocchi would be catatonic the rest of her life if she had to go through even half of Fletcher's bullying

There's a lot in the movie about dying miserable but being remembered. It's an ambiguous story about what success means to people.

A lot of stuff with Fletcher is that there is drive to make someone succeed, but at what point does the drive to succeed become mental illness
The director said that newman will be dead at 30. Like charlie parker and his substance abuse. Is dying but being remembered better than living and being obscure? The cultural differences here. Ultimately I think Newman says that it doesn't matter, but who knows

>>85257
I think that part of the takeaway comes down to the person. The value of a human life, especially your own being put on the exchange table. There's some people who would gladly burn away their remaining lifespan to leave a lasting impact on the world, and some of us who would rather enjoy a long and healthy life who don't mind if we leave any lasting mark on civilization in our passing. To Neiman, it seems like he's of the former type, where he wants to be the Buddy Rich on some other drummer's wall in the future. That knowing full well what happened to Sean Casey and even himself in the accident, he still chooses to press on and go back on that stage with Fletcher.

Something at the end is where he calls his former girlfriend and I think at that point he comes up with the thought that he's basically lost his life other than music

In a way the moral quandary of the movie is quite applicable to many different real life situations. Especially those related to studios crunching to create the best work possible. Was the success of JJK worth the toll it took on MAPPA's animation staff?

>>85259
True, and if it weren't for Fletcher's hell lessons Neiman may have had another path in life available to him that didn't rapidly diminish his remaining time. All his school time used on music and his connections burnt because of how the stress made him a prick to those around him.

>>85253
Honestly, I can't really blame Fletcher. You can call him an asshole, you can say he was unreasonable, but he certainly wasn't a hack. Nobody was forced to be there. The people who were there, were there because they wanted to be there and got there by their own efforts. The people who couldn't bear his teaching methods would have been weeded out. The trombone player who didn't know whether he was in tune was out because he couldn't stand the pressure. Tanner, by a fluke, lost his notes and couldn't play without them. Connolly genuinely was better than Neiman for a brief moment there, but he had more time to practice. But at the end of the day, Fletcher's methods did work. He did produce a band that was the best among the competition.

There wasn't anything saying Neiman had to measure up to Connolly -- he wanted to be better. Neiman gets on a bus and it has a flat tire. That's life. But what does Neiman do? He tries to call a cab, but when it's clear it's not gonna make it he gets a rental car and speeds to make it to the recital. And then Neiman strolls in swearing because he doesn't get to play? Neiman was the one being unreasonable, not Fletcher. Fletcher didn't force him to get into a car accident to get his sticks to play, or force him to play even after the car accident. When Fletcher told Neiman he was out, I think he was right to do so. If Fletcher's methods were pushing Neiman to do better, Neiman was pushing himself even harder.

Upswingin was definitely malicious, but again... Neiman put himself into that position. He didn't have to talk with that lawyer to oust Fletcher from Shaffer. Sean Casey died in a car accident. What did any of that have to do with Neiman? He could have walked away.

>>85257
Honestly, considering my own life for a moment, the things that I have worked on, that I've pushed myself beyond my limits, and made me feel miserable? Those are some of the things I have been most proud of to have accomplished in my life. It's as >>85258 says. It should be up to the individual whether they think it's more important to be successful at the cost of their personal life or not. In Neiman's case, he wanted that. Maybe he does die by 30, but I don't think you could consider him a failure. He would have done what he wanted to do, even if it meant burning up his life to get where he wanted to be, even for a brief moment.

>>85267
>Sean Casey died in a car accident
That one's actually wrong and easy to miss if you miss a line. Fletcher's only saying it was a car accident probably to cover for himself. Later on with the lawyers it's clarified that Sean Casey hung himself.

>>85268
>That one's actually wrong
That was why I italicized it. The point is that it had nothing to do with Neiman. We never see Sean Casey. He could have moved to Panama and given up music to enjoy the low cost of living for all it matters. Tanner washed out, but what did he do instead? He went into pre-med. Nothing forced Sean Casey to kill himself. It's a red herring. Maybe Fletcher did drive Sean Casey to suicide because of his methods, but that's ignoring everything unreasonable Neiman did that makes their situations incomparable.