I really have no idea, but I treat them as originals since I just never got into reading comics or manga. There are a select few exceptions, but as a whole it's just not something I like.
How do Westerners feel as a whole? I really don't know (or care to be honest) but manga is certainly far more accessible to teenagers today than it used to be. Apparently even school libraries have it, which utterly boggles my mind that the world has changed so much.

>>111322
When I was going for a j*b interview, the interviewer said he liked reading as well, but when I asked him what he was reading he said Black Clover and One Piece, apparently norms consider shonen manga equivalent to novel reading for what its worth

>>111322
and as a whole, it's mostly limited to shonen and shoujo stuff, with some FotM stuff here and there.

It's weird, because when you look at lists of best anime of all time, a the vast majority of entries are invariably adaptations. Novels, manga, VNs, it's only anime that has an irrelevant amount of original stuff.
You could say that no adaptation is as good as the original, ergo the anime industry is just a gigantic commercial machine, but that'd kinda discredit the whole thing and just doesn't make sense. The mixture of animation, voicing, music and all that must make it into a new work or else it's simply derivative.

Anime is fairly good at replicating manga, in many cases it's almost animating what is on the manga down to exact dialogue and scene composition. But anime has VAs, soundtracks and animations so I always pick anime over Manga if they are both available.
So, while I do prefer anime, I don't think it's really a separate work or a different interpretation(unless it's one of those anime adaptations where the end has not been written yet so they have no choice but to make a different interpretation).

I don't think they are commercials, they cost money to make and as Manga is already quite popular in Japan I think that if people were interested in it they would already know about it or they could advertise it in other ways. I think most people who watch anime adaptation have either read the manga before they watched the anime or they have no inclination to read the manga anyway.
Plus, original animes often get manga adaptations of themselves which would make no sense if anime were just commercials. Reading and watching are different formats so I think they just release manga adaptations so people that prefer to read can read.

I don't think it's hard to find manga translations at all. I own physical English copies of some pretty niche mangas such as Touhou, Kemono Friends, Girls Last Tour and Witch Hat Atelier.
I actually think it's harder to find good translations online than it is to find well translated physical copies. I brought physical copies of Girls und Panzer because of how bad the online translation was and how it seemed that every site copied the one translation from /ak/ which shared the same issues which to me predominately was that characters would swear.
Though while the online translation of Kemono Friends is fine and works and has no issues, I still think the licensed translation of the manga is much better.

>>112064
>I don't think they are commercials, they cost money
The reality is that the only ways to recoup the cost is by selling anime or the adapted manga. As manga is the much more popular thing in Japan, they make far more money than anime and an airing anime consistently boosts the manga sale numbers.
Also, most anime are broadcasted over free TV channels, so they have more exposure than manga.

>Plus, original animes often get manga adaptations of themselves which would make no sense if anime were just commercials.
They're an entirely different category from regular adaptations, where anime studios are paid a one time fee to produce the anime by the IP holders, and they get nothing from sales. For original anime, the studios usually hold a large share of the IP, so they have the incentive to make profit from it by licensing and selling other adaptations.

>I actually think it's harder to find good translations online than it is to find well translated physical copies.
Official manga translations are less bad than official anime translations, but they still have various problems. The translation quality compared to fan translations differ from work to work.
For example, the first 2 volumes of Machikado Mazoku have very bad official translations and fan translations are much better. While later volumes are better, they still have various problems such as frequent omission of details. The 4/a/ translation is the best one but I think it's not shared anywhere else online so you have to dig through the archives.

>>112070
They would make a lot of money through simply airing the Anime on TV, which is the standard model for most TV shows anyway. Plus of course through selling the rights to air it overseas in other nations.

>For original anime, the studios usually hold a large share of the IP, so they have the incentive to make profit from it by licensing and selling other adaptations.
That's true but that is still a company making an anime and then a manga afterwards, which would not happen if anime are just commercials, if that were true they would write a manga and then make the anime.

In a way whether the source is originally an anime or manga it works the same. A company makes money from one format, feels that they would be able to make more money if they sell it on the other format too and so they create that project and some people that have watched the anime before or read the mange before will consume the new format as well while some people who have not consumed either will watch or read one then also watch or read the other. So it's not really any different and none of them are commercials for the other.


I did some quick research on wikipedia and it does seem anime can more than hold it's own and really isn't a commercial.

>An anime episode can cost between US$100,000 and US$300,000 to produce.[88] In 2001, animation accounted for 7% of the Japanese film market, above the 4.6% market share for live-action works.[87] The popularity and success of anime is seen through the profitability of the DVD market, contributing nearly 70% of total sales.[87] According to a 2016 article on Nikkei Asian Review, Japanese television stations have bought over ¥60 billion worth of anime from production companies "over the past few years", compared with under ¥20 billion from overseas.[89] There has been a rise in sales of shows to television stations in Japan, caused by late night anime with adults as the target demographic.[89] This type of anime is less popular outside Japan, being considered "more of a niche product".[89] Spirited Away (2001) was the all-time highest-grossing film in Japan until overtaken by Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba – The Movie: Mugen Train in 2020.[90][91][92] It was also the highest-grossing anime film worldwide until it was overtaken by Makoto Shinkai's 2016 film Your Name.[93] Anime films represent a large part of the highest-grossing Japanese films yearly in Japan, with 6 out of the top 10 in 2014, in 2015 and also in 2016.

And on foreign companies licensing anime.

>Licenses are expensive, often hundreds of thousands of dollars for one series and tens of thousands for one movie.[95] The prices vary widely; for example, Jinki: Extend cost only $91,000 to license while Kurau Phantom Memory cost $960,000.[95] Simulcast Internet streaming rights can be cheaper, with prices around $1,000–2,000 an episode,[96] but can also be more expensive, with some series costing more than US$200,000 per episode.[97]

>The anime market for the United States was worth approximately $2.74 billion in 2009.[98] Dubbed animation began airing in the United States in 2000 on networks like The WB and Cartoon Network's Adult Swim.[99] In 2005, this resulted in five of the top ten anime titles having previously aired on Cartoon Network.[99] As a part of localization, some editing of cultural references may occur to better follow the references of the non-Japanese culture.[100] The cost of English localization averages US$10,000 per episode

>The translation quality compared to fan translations differ from work to work.
Fan translation quality differs a lot as well. The /ak/ translation I mentioned is a fan translation and I think the Kemono Friends one was as well.

>>112073
>They would make a lot of money through simply airing the Anime on TV, which is the standard model for most TV shows anyway.
Late night slots don't work this way. The IP holders have to pay the TV stations to broadcast anime on them. If you pay attention to the advertisements shown in the anime, all of them are put on there by the IP holders to advertise their other franchises, not by the TV stations. TV stations simply don't earn any money from these advertisements (unless they're a major part of the production committee and thus are able to put some advertisements of their own), it's natural they're charging for the time slots.

>That's true but that is still a company making an anime and then a manga afterwards, which would not happen if anime are just commercials
I implied that original anime (not advertisements) are "an entirely different category from regular adaptations (advertisements)". As most of the anime are adaptions, anime being advertisements is the norm.

>I did some quick research on wikipedia and it does seem anime can more than hold it's own and really isn't a commercial.
Anime original films aren't adaptations, so they're not commercials. The topic of advertisements is specifically for adaptations.

>And on foreign companies licensing anime.
Because manga and merchandises aren't popular overseas, the only option of generating revenue from anime overseas is from the anime itself. That's why they're on subscription services instead of free TV stations.

>>112074
Well however you think it works, Japanese TV stations spent 60 Billion yen on anime while spending only 20 billion yen on foreign production.

Anyway, this whole debate can be killed quite quickly if you look at the profits both industries make.

In 2022, the Global Manga industry made 10.32 Billion USD with the Japanese Market being worth 4.96 Billion USD that year. So a bit less than half of the value of the Magna industry comes from overseas.

Now, anime made 20.6 Billion USD that same year in 2022 with 42.2% of that coming from Japan.

So two things can be seen here, first of all the profits both industries make from Japan in proportion to the global market are very similar.

But secondly, anime makes double the profits that Manga does. So what you are essentially saying is that the commercial for a product makes more money than the product itself. That would to me imply that perhaps anime isn't a commercial at all.

>>112075
>Well however you think it works,

I meant however it works.

>>112075
>Now, anime made 20.6 Billion USD that same year
I wonder how they measure this. Does that include BDs and stuff, although a lot of stuff never get Western releases. I wonder how it counts stuff that gets sold to Crunchyroll and the like.

>>112075
>Now, anime made 20.6 Billion USD that same year in 2022 with 42.2% of that coming from Japan.
Sure, copying whatever some secondary report is saying without understanding what they really mean.
That figure is for the revenue of ALL anime-related revenues, including merchandise and music sales.
Pic related shows the official figures. In the Japanese market, the actual money made from anime themselves, which includes "TV", "Film", "Video", and "Streaming", is just 371 billion yen, less than the manga market in Japan.
On the other hand, "Merchandise" itself accounts for 663 billion yen, and "Entertainment"(Pachinko) accounts for 305.6 billion yen.

>>112077
I got the anime part from here.

https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/anime-market

I'm not sure what it includes but it has this chart, sorry for the size and the fact that it only shows the US market in this image, there are more charts in more detail but they are behind a paywall.

it also said this.

>The merchandising segment registered the highest market share of over 31% in 2022 and is anticipated to dominate the market during the forecast period. This is attributed to the growing demand for anime merchandise products, including figurines, t-shirts, posters, and key chains among the younger population. These merchandises are available for purchase through a variety of online and offline channels. Increased individual desire to collect items associated with their favorite(sic) anime series is anticipated to drive segment growth.

Also I noticed something weird that I will address before somebody thinks I misquoted this. Under the bottom tab it says Japan made up 42.2% but elsewhere it says Japan made up 42.0%

>>112079
I'm fairly sure this is the primary report, your report doesn't even have 2022. And also yes it does include Merchandise and that seems to be the largest portion, in fact it's almost large than the entire Manga industry.
I can't actually read that and you've posted no link but it seems to not say what you think it says.

Here is another report on the Manga industry though not the one I used. >>112075
But it's by the same website I already posted so I thought that would be interesting.


https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/manga-market-report

>>112080
>I can't actually read that and you've posted no link but it seems to not say what you think it says.
Here is the English version of it. The source can't get more official than that:
https://aja.gr.jp/english/japan-anime-data

What's more important to see is that in 2021, the 2,742 billion yen total figure is for anime AND anime-related markets. The revenue actually received by studios is only 293 billion yen.

>>112082
What the studios make does not really matter, it's what the publishers make and the industry as a whole makes that matters. And what the industry makes as a whole is double what the manga industry as a whole makes.

But even by your own argument, just the studios alone still make profits equal to half of the entire Manga industry in Japan and a quarter of the Entire world wide Manga industry.

>>112084
Whatever you just said is an irrelevant argument at best, and an intentional strawman to discredit my "animation as advertisement" point at worst.
The data clearly shows that in the Japanese market, the revenue from anime themselves is much less than the anime-related products.
It's obvious that the primary purpose of anime is to increase the popularity of their related franchises (advertisement), which increases the demand of the franchises as a whole, including merchandises, where most of the revenues come from.

>>112085
What you are doing is moving the argument from 'anime is made to advertise manga' to 'anime is made to advertise merchandise' that's a different argument.
One is about anime being a product to monetise manga and the other is a about how anime itself is monetised.
I would not even say that anime is an advertisement for merchandise just that there is a large industry of merchandise around anime.

But what I will say is that even if you ignore merchandise, the anime industry still makes more than the Manga industry.
And merchandise doesn't make up most of the profits just the largest share at 31% according to >>112080


And even then if you broke that down further and started talking about individual anime it would change the picture of the industry completely.
I would guess that the majority of the profits made by merchandise is made by a minority of the anime IPs that are produced. Most anime probably does not make much from merchandise if it makes anything at all.

>>112089
>What you are doing is moving the argument from 'anime is made to advertise manga' to 'anime is made to advertise merchandise' that's a different argument.
No, I didn't. I already brought up merchandises as a target for the advertising for the Japanese market in >>112074. The merchandise figure serves to strengthen my argument about anime being advertisements, not replacing the already established point about manga.

>But what I will say is that even if you ignore merchandise, the anime industry still makes more than the Manga industry.
My original point about manga industry figure still stands:
>In the Japanese market, the actual money made from anime themselves, which includes "TV", "Film", "Video", and "Streaming", is just 371 billion yen, less than the manga market in Japan.
Note that from your own source, the "4.96 Billion USD in Japan" manga industry figure only includes the sale of manga themselves, not anything else related to them. Therefore, it's only fair to compare the manga figure to the anime figure that only include anime themselves, which is less than the manga figure.

>And merchandise doesn't make up most of the profits just the largest share at 31% according to >>112080
>Most anime probably does not make much from merchandise if it makes anything at all.
By your own figure, manga is the second largest source of revenue of franchises just slightly behind merchandise, and would be a more important revenue driver for the most anime you mentioned. Which means for most anime are advertisements for manga.

>>112093
Well no it's not really fare to compare anime to Magna in that way as they are monetised differently due to being different formats.
That's essentially what your argument resolves around, the idea that anime is an advertisement for merchandise which is really an argument about how anime is monetised. Remember of course that people don't pay for every episode of anime they watch but do pay for the manga they read. You can argue that anime is a commercial for merchandise which I disagree, but that's still the anime industry making money it's just making it in a different way. Whilst you do say that this is unfair it's just the way the industry works.

>manga is the second largest source of revenue of franchises just slightly behind merchandise,
Because of how convoluted anime monitisatiion is, however as I said, even ignoring merchandise it still makes more than the manga industry.

Your source complicates things with the way it organises the charts. It does not break down what actually makes up Overseas.
>>112080 has a break down of the US market though does not list actual statistics and the US market is probably not the best to base the world market on. But going but that over half of revenue comes from Motion Picture formats whether that be film or TV or internet distribution.
So then if we half the overseas item from the chart in your source we get about 656 Billion yen, add domestic figures to that and the total is 1027. So even if we only use Motion picture Media revenue and even if we are lenient in how we do that the profits are still almost the same as the entire Manga industry.


If we just focus on internal sales so we get a better picture then even internally just motion picture media makes a lot, about half of what domestic manga does and once we add the rest even without merchandise then anime makes more than Manga.

Domestic TV, Video, Movies and internet distribution combines make up 371 Billion, as you have said which itself is half the entire domestic Manga industry at 677 Billion Yen.
Once you add the other domestic items(excluding Merchandise), so Music, Pachinko and the like and Live Entertainment the total reaches 765.4 Billion Yen.

So even if we just focus on motion picture media, it still makes over half what the Manga industry does so still could in noway be called a commercial for it. But once you add the rest even excluding merchandise well then it makes more than the Manga industry.

>>112094
>which is really an argument about how anime is monetised
No, it's about how the *franchise* is monetized. Anime is nothing more than one from of monetization. The revenue directly from anime is small compared to other forms of revenues for the franchise.

>Your source complicates things with the way it organises the charts. It does not break down what actually makes up Overseas.
My argument has ALWAYS revolved around the Japanese market, which is the largest market in the world and is indicative of their primary business models because overseas revenue hadn't been relevant until recently.

>and the US market is probably not the best to base the world market on
It is indeed one of the very worst to base on, considering most of the overseas revenues come from East Asia, the US market is irrelevant even in the global scale.

>Once you add the other domestic items(excluding Merchandise), so Music, Pachinko and the like and Live Entertainment the total reaches 765.4 Billion Yen.
Do you seriously consider Pachinko (third largest revenue stream) as "anime" revenue? Because this is a textbook example of franchise monetization. You can still consider music as part of anime but still once you subtract Pachinko, your result isn't true.

>>112096
What you are doing is dividing franchise into individual portions of revenue and I can see that the way you see it is that as Manga is the largest individual portion(though that itself is arguable) that this means Manga is the most important part of the model and everything else is subject to it, everything is a commercial for it(though even if that were true I don't think x making less than y makes x a commercial for y, I would say that the LOTR film franchise and extended media have made more than the books did but that does not make the books commercials for the films).

But what this does is miss the way the franchise as a whole works and the way all of those topics interact with each other. So yes, merchandise, Pachinko and Live Services are not actually anime itself, however, they are still part of the anime ecosystem with people buying merchandise because of the anime and so it being a profit made by the anime existing even if it's not a purchase of the anime itself. It's about how something makes money.
And this effects manga too, manga itself will drive merchandise sales, manga itself could be seen in a way as a commercial for merchandise.
It would be very difficult to see what drives merchandise sales more however and one would also have to look at where the three pieces sit in the corporate structure and see who is making the merchandise, for what purpose, where the profits go and why. But what is telling is that it's listed in the market report under anime, not manga.

And it is quite important to remember what my source actually is, because it is a market report, it is something made with the intention of providing information to investors on potential investments for the future.

That relates to your point about the Japanese market being the focal point of the industry as well. Yes, it is, and yes over the years the overseas portion has been increasing in proportion of revenue. But as your source shows it always made up a large portion of the income.
The overseas growth of the industry shows what the industry is doing and putting effort towards and that can be seen in the movements Japanese companies put into selling to the overseas market now. Crunchyrole was made by a Japanese company with the intention of increasing western sales for example.
So yes, it revolves around Japan but no, it's not indicative of their primary business model or where all of there efforts lie.

I think there are two key points,
Firstly that anime is the driving force behind the industry, it's what the report for investors was based around and labelled as being and it's what the report from the association of Japanese animators you reference is based on as well. They don't call it the Manga industry or the Merchandise industry.

But secondly whatever frame one could try to use. Anime itself, regardless of the merchandise or anything else, still makes money and a reasonable amount at that, more than Manga globally and still a significant portion of what the domestic manga market makes.

SO I don't see how you could say it's simply made to advertise manga and not for anything else.

The idea of anime "advertising" manga is fundamentally backwards.

It's more correct to look at the manga (and LN) markets as pilots for the anime and goods industry.

Manga and LNs take relatively little investment, usually the work of a small team or even a solo author. Whereas anime production requires hundreds of people. Some goods like high quality figures also require a substantial initial investment in the sculpting, building molds, painting, etc.

If a manga or LN is popular, it will get picked up for further monetization through anime and goods. A popular manga or LN guarantees a pre-existing fanbase, so there is less risk in the investment.

So basically mangas and LNs are used to "pitch" the idea of the story to the public, and if it's successful, it'll get picked up for an anime.

>>112098
>and so it being a profit made by the anime existing even if it's not a purchase of the anime itself. It's about how something makes money.
Yeah, anime existing makes money, which mostly comes from merchandise and manga sales. That means anime indeed mainly serve as advertisements.

>manga itself could be seen in a way as a commercial for merchandise.
This is partly true. However, manga is a terrible form of advertisement, due to much less exposure compared to anime. Social media and fanart activity, which is an indicator of the exposure of a franchise, heavily correlates with anime airing activities, even if the corresponding manga is already well-received. This is why making anime, while costly, gains a lot more exposure for the franchise that it increases the revenue of it as a whole. This point also addresses >>112107.

>But as your source shows it always made up a large portion of the income.
Not always, only recently. In 2013, overseas revenues make less than 20% of the total revenue. It's important to know that the anime industry business model had already been developed and established long before that.
I have also explained that they have adjusted the business model of overseas markets, due to high demand of anime and low demand of merchandises.

>>112107
>It's more correct to look at the manga (and LN) markets as pilots for the anime and goods industry.
Incorrect, the sale numbers of them indicates the profitability of the franchise as a whole. If the manga/LN is good and get decent sale numbers, they will make anime to advertise them to a broader audience, to achieve even larger sale numbers. If the source material is bad in the first place, the IP holder won't be able to recoup the cost of making anime afterwards, and it won't be adapted.

>>112115
bro I think we agree on this, you just said the exact same thing but in different words

>>112115
It does not mean that anime serves as advertisement any more than it means Dune the books was an advertisement for Dune the movies.
It's just another way it makes money.

So what that says is that anime is very popular and gets lots of exposure, so it stands on it's own as a form of entertainment and not as an advertisement for something else.

20% is a lot.
The US market example posted before shows that there is a considerable demand for Merchandise overseas a s well, probably not as large as it is in Japan but still considerable.
Because of course merchandise does not just mean anime figs and dakis, Pokemon toys and Naruto shirts are also merchandise.