No.112851
>cultural analysis
Most of these are inaccurate
No.112852
analysis, emphasis anal
No.112854
>>112851I'm not even sure if it's so much about accuracy as much as just having someone spend a lot of time looking deeply into these sorts of things. Often there are internet arguments about stuff like otaku desire, but they're always talking about the same things over and over and it's usually clear that no one in the convo is willing to bother looking deep enough to get farther than mindless bickering where no one gets anywhere. Having someone who's job is literally to spend months of their lives looking into every little detail of a topic can provide some use I feel.
The only other sort of "cultural analysis" I've seen is the stuff about imageboards, but it's always about the relation to American politics so it's automatically useless (to all except sensationalist journos and norms) from the start.
No.112856
>>112854Its not just america, there are writings relating politics to textboards and imageboards in Japan too. Netouyo have been compared to the alt right often in academia
No.112857
I've read this paper on moe before.
Galbraith, Patrick W. (2009) Moe and the Potential of Fantasy in Post-Millennial Japan, electronic journal of contemporary japanese studies, Article 5 in 2009
https://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/articles/2009/Galbraith.html No.112858
>>112857>Post-MillennialAre we in the post-post-millennial era now
No.112859
It's basically a subgenre of journalism. Entertainment journalism isn't very interesting to me.
No.112860
No, I also think it's difficult to read too much into any media fanbase particularly one as diverse as Otaku as the people in it have hugely different tastes and value different things and are even attracted to a single piece of media for different reasons than other people who like that same media.
No.112861
I have read a fair share of them. Here's what I recommend:
- I’m Alone, But Not Lonely by Volker Grassmuck: a short and interesting read. The main thing I took away from this one was learning Yui Haga, the first "virtual idol" from 1990: she was the collective product of a japanese radio show and aimed to be the purest idol ever. So pure that in order to keep her purity her face was always blurred. There's a few videos of her on youtube, like this perfomance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-Rwobqtbfs . Super interesting stuff conceptually, and the music is pretty good too.
- Otaku: Japan's Database Animals by Hiroki Azuma : goes into great length about the otaku phenomenon in Japan. Can be a little too dense at times
- The End of Cool Japan: Ethical, Legal, and Cultural Challenges to Japanese Popular Culture by Mark McLelland: This one's the most recent one being from 2016. Has an interesting article about the rise of lolicon in the '70s.
some articles:
https://denpapentateuch.blogspot.com/2021/08/essay-on-mechanism-of-moe-in-otaku.html (self explanatory given the URL)
https://thewalrus.ca/2007-05-field-notes-3/ - An article about Loft Plus One, a club in Japan in which people are encouraged to talk about anything, doesn't matter how taboo the subject is. The article details a particular night in which the creators of Boku no Pico did a post-mortem of sorts with fans.
No.112862
>>112861>The End of Cool JapanPeople were really dramatic over this
No.112863
>>112850No, I don't trust academics with this type of thing.
Maybe it's because of the time I've spent on imageboards and the internet that I'm more likely to consider the opinions of random people who report their own thoughts and experiences, whether it's an entire blog or a few sparse comments even when they have zero proof over a "credible source". I think seeing those academic reports and studies on "memes" and imageboards posted over the years are a big reason too.
They're out-of-touch. I don't think they can really understand any cultural phenomena unless they were there or they did a ton of research. Even the people who were in the thick of it would have a hard time understanding what it all meant, and anything resembling a cohesive picture called the Truth™ could only be formed after reading many perspectives.
It would be similar to an academic work on the 60s or the Vietnam War or /jp/ or /qa/.
And of course I imagine the average academic is interested not so much in finding the truth but in increasing his status and prestige, perhaps by tackling an unconventional topic like otaku.
It can be interesting in a humorous and slightly endearing way, seeing what a naive outsider thinks.
No.112864
>>112863Correction: It can be interesting in a humorous and slightly endearing way, seeing what a naive
academic, a member of a lofty institution, thinks.
An ignorant outsider can generally be forgiven because it's not his job to find the truth, well as long he doesn't go around claiming he has the truth or collecting profits...
No.112866
>>112854>The only other sort of "cultural analysis" I've seen is the stuff about imageboardsThere was a PhD thesis about Krautchan and its memes, but it's only in German.
No.112875
>>112850The title sounded interesting, shame it's apparently not so good.
I refuse to do my due diligence and base this entirely on the first review I found.
No.112877
Why is it always eva
No.112878
because
>>112859 it's journalism
No.112880
So journos are obsessed with EVA?
No.112881
>>112863>I don't think they can really understand any cultural phenomena unless they were thereIt's the opposite, you can't truly understand it until you are removed enough to look at it objectively. Like with history, this state can't really be attained while it's on-going. The people who were in the thick of it have naturally biased and incomplete views while also having an interest in promoting their own narrative of events.
Outsiders also have this issue of adamantly disagreeing sources as well as on-going developments that may even be influenced by what they write. And the deeper you dig into it, the less of an outsider you become.
No.112882
I think it's a natural and reasonable reaction to roll your eyes and imagine something like those news articles about 4chan and internet memes written by clueless journalists where all the information is wrong or 5+ years outdated, but there's plenty of work by people who are part of the subculture and very well-informed, and even (former) industry figures like Otaking/Okada Toshio.
>>112877Because it's objectively one of the most important anime of all time.
No.112883
Also, fun fact: if I'm not mistaken, the author of OP's book has claimed that one way to tell if someone is an otaku is "whether he can fap to anime characters".
No.112884
>>112883That's either wrong or outdated, everyone faps to "anime waifus" now.
No.112885
>>112882Objectively speaking it is not Oshii's Ghost in the Shell or Kon's Perfect Blue.
It is simply a popular work of psychological drama with a lot of blatant sexual themes and gore. With popularity comes the interest of for profit journalism.
No.112886
Also my opinion is that if you want to trace two styles that relly influenced current animation then you would look at Masaaki Yuasa's deconstructive take on animations meaning and Kyoani destinctive art style.
Homage to those two are why bocchi the rock is a hit. Sticks to the script.
No.112887
>>112885And Perfect Blue is not Nausicaa or Gundam 0079. What's your point?
No.112888
>>112885Dont bother arguing with an EVA fanbou
No.112889
>>112887somehow I predicted that but I don't really have a response. Yeah history is iterative, but I'm a 30yo fitting in with modern society
No.112890
Just admit nobody would care about EVA if it didnt have sexy teens
No.112891
>>112890Nobody would care about EVA if it didnt have sexy teens. There, that was easy
No.112892
>>112888I didn't even say anything about Eva's quality as a work or lack thereof, I just stated a fact that has been repeated ad nauseam for decades now. You are free to dislike it, you know.
No.112893
"Haruhi was an important anime"
"lol endless eight sux"
...okay?
No.112894
>>112884The book was originally released in 2000, translated 2011, so it is pretty outdated.
If the review in
>>112875 is to be trusted, it seems the problems with it have only gotten worse with time due to how popular otaku stuff in general has become worldwide
No.112895
Shuddup you dumdums, you're saying the same things for the billionth time. Meanwhile, I went and read the damn book. Here's my takeaway:
Basically, the beautiful fighting girl is to him a young bishoujo who remains pretty and feminine while going out to fight stuff (戦闘美少女), influential characters like Lum, Noriko Takaya, and Sailor Moon, in contrast to western amazonian "warrior women" that are older, "have butch personalities and lots of muscles," “men in women’s bodies.” He rejects sweeping statements about the Japanese spirit, doesn't infantilize otaku, and does discuss Otaking when talking about the nature of their culture. He is by a very long shot better informed than most otaku ever, including people here. The book is not really about what the title suggests, though. Bishoujo are secondary to the otaku psyche, the real topic, what is behind the bishoujo. Their genealogy is only adressed in chapter 5 out of 6. Still, once it gets rolling he brings up more material than what ten thousand /a/ threads would, stretching back to the 50s. Even brings up toku here and there.
There's an interesting part in ch. 6 where he's talking about atemporality "in which time and space are grossly distorted and exaggerated according to the passion and expressivity of the characters" like a baseball match lasting three years in real time, how it goes back to old kōdan and things like the 寛永三馬術, how anime as the stepchild of manga inherited it alongside other techniques, and that Miyazaki was very critical of it.
Mr. Saitō is in fact
NOT a journalist, possibly to the
chagrin of preemptive complainers. But he's also
not a sociologist, anthropologist, or even a historian. He's a shrink. Sadly, psychologists in particular have all sorts of crazy idiosyncratic opinions, it's like their agenda consists of confusing people as much as possible, and all the points found in
>>112875 are entirely correct. He says Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "the Bond girls in the 007 series" and several others are either amazonian or a consequence of Japanese influence, and I kind of glossed over all the homosexuality and feminism parts.
There's a letter from a hyper-ultra-truWeab at the end of chapter 3, that one I do recommend checking out, and I must remark, the genealogy found in chapter 5 is really good.
>>112877Because it's
always Eva. It just is.
>I spare the reader the details of the endless conversations among the members of a certain psychiatry department during the Evangelion boom of 1997.He later talks about the negative reaction to Eva's ending, and its importance in that:
>But at the same time huge numbers of fans began to write their own “Eva” stories. And this was certainly the proper otaku response."Proper" for reasons stated at the bottom. Later again he brings up Eva coming in at #1 in 1997 surveys, then once more writes:
>Nagai’s masterpiece Devilman (Debiruman) is said to have been an intellectual influence on Evangelion, one of the most important works of the 1990s. From these things alone it is possible to grasp the range of influence of Nagai’s works.Lastly, in the '90s section of chapter 5:
>The 1990s will probably be remembered as the age of anime revival. If Sailor Moon, a work that was successful domestically—not to mention internationally —is evoked to represent the first half of the decade, Evangelion represents the second half.Rei specifically is on the cover because she created an archetype, she's "the culmination of the Pygmalionism that began with Nanako SOS" a decade before. He's not an Anno fanboy by any means, as he also spends a lot of time on Ootomo, Nagai, Tezuka, Miyazaki, and Okada, among others. For example, on the topic of warped time above:
>It was Tezuka’s introduction of kairological time that made manga after Tezuka so utterly different from manga before Tezuka.>>112881I think part of the reason why academics are so often regarded as outsiders is that they don't use the rhetoric of the people they're talking about, instead sticking to generic academic speak with a bit of flavor at most. Add the growing anti-academia sentiment and, well, no one's gonna like it.
>>112883That's a mischaracterization. He talks about true otaku as people who "are capable of jumping freely between multiple fictional contexts and easily moving back and forth between the role of receiver and creator," "not just fans, but connoisseurs, critics, and authors themselves." From there, "Otaku are most otaku-like in their sex lives" because "they love and genuinely desire [...] an utterly fictional being." He also talks about how older forms of naturalistic drawn erotica have "been completely taken over by anime-style drawing." The entire second chapter is about all forms of sexuality oriented towards fictional characters (including drawings, figs, and real-size dolls), versus those who oppose it.
There's context to it. I think he's wrong because of
>>112884, but it's still not a shallow position. This was written in the year 2000.
No.112896
It's been a while since I read that database animals book and I forgot whatever idiosyncratic meaning the "animals" part of the title had, but I remember the "database" part of it making me think yes this is true. It was something like, otaku's enjoyment of fictional 2D moe girls is essentially them enjoying a bunch of traits independently of each other, you can just sum up how much they like each trait and the total is how much they like the girl. That makes sense to me, for example I like small and cute things, big boobs, long hair, messy hair, genki girls, and service industry uniforms so I like Poplar from Working!! because, and
primarily because, she 'ticks all those boxes'. I would like a similar character design just as much, it's not about Poplar specifically.
But take that with a grain of salt as the previous may be me misremembering it as an explanation that appeals to me more.
>>112895Thanks for posting the takeaway, I might pick the book up then.
No.112897
>>112895Good post, Anonymous.
>That's a mischaracterization.I wasn't referring to the contents of the book itself, which I haven't read (only seen the concept of 戦う美少女 discussed in other books and articles), just an offhand quote or something. But I looked it up, and it seems he did literally say that, though I don't know the context:
https://news.nicovideo.jp/watch/nw363576>精神科医・斎藤環先生は「オタクかどうかの基準は二次元で抜けるかどうかだ」と書いていらっしゃった。 No.112899
>>112896>enjoying a bunch of traits independently of each otherVery interesting point, I'll see about checking that one out.
If you do pick up Fighting Girl, you're gonna need some tolerance for psychespeak and the ability to skim past things you don't care about.
>>112897Yes, here's the literal quote:
>To put it very crudely, what distinguishes an otaku from a non-otaku is whether he is able to “get release” with an anime character. For those of you who are still not sure what I am saying, let me make it perfectly clear. I am saying that you can tell an otaku by whether he is able to use the image of a female anime character as an aid to masturbation.The thing is that "dude said you're an otaku if you fap to 2d" just makes it seem like he's a random loony, which he's not. It's a conclusion
derived from a framework, not a jii-san complaining about things he doesn't understand. That's why it's a mischaracterization.
No.112900
>>112895You skipped the most important parts! Feminism and homosexuality topics are half the reason works like this were written
No.112901
>>112900It's not that big a theme. Feminism comes in as some sorta thing about liberation tied to these characters, and homosexuality is a tiny note on the matter of how otaku are actually pretty well-adjusted heteronormative people who can distinguish reality from fiction and are absolutely not gay over shota, trust me dude. (In reference to 90s otaku, that is.)
No.112902
I don't care about feminism one bit, I just want to roughhouse with some Precures.
No.112903
>>112895Academics should be outsiders. If they're not, their preconceptions and biases seep into the research and analysis. They need to be able to look at a dozen people arguing over what it means to be tru-otaku and judge the merit of each, which isn't possible when you come in thinking you're an otaku because then you can only accept a result that includes you. Impartiality is core to establishing the validity of the results and impartiality requires that one not be a part of what one is researching. An "insider" academic is just a propaganda creator.
No.112907
>>112901>are absolutely not gay over shota, trust me dude.This is a complicated topic, I personally think even if you masturbate to gay porn you aren't gay if you wouldnt have sex with a real 3D man
No.112909
>>112903I very much undersand what you're getting at, believe me. However, there are crucial cases where becoming an insider is non-negotiable. One of the biggest issues in linguistics is the difference between a speaker's native intuition, their perception, and the gap between it and how things actually work. You can't take the speaker at their word because they only have a
functional understanding, not a theoretical one, yet it's unsurpassed in that regard. So, a linguist's job requires them to both internalize and carefully analyze the language in order to properly dissect it. Pic is the most hilarious example I've ever come across, from the controversial
Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes, the story of a missionary going to the Amazon to learn how to speak an unknown language in order to convert its people. (I haven't actually read much of it since it's ehh, but learning about his experience was fun.)
Anthropologists too will spend several months or more living in the community they wish to examine, only after becoming insiders can they adequately describe its worldview and dynamics. Historians work on the "history of mentalities," to view events through the lens of those who lived during them, and it's quite an important thing. The worst takes come not from these people, but from those who jump into the fray with a critique already on hand, those who hop onto 4chan in order to write about that oh-so-problematic Anonymous of ours. The ones who are total and absolute outsiders, by choice. These propagandists are present aplenty, academia is built on the shoulders of extremists looking to justify their views in the most elaborate and convincing ways possible, the ones who can be bothered to spend decades writing about it. The craziest opinions aren't found on the street. Impartiality is more of a STEM thing.
But going back to rhetoric, what I mean is that academics speak like academics. It doesn't matter what kind of scene you're reading about, it can be '60s hippies, '70s punks, or '90s internauts, the authors describing them all write in similar ways. The language used by a movement, with all of its signifiers and yadda yadda that make you look like a member of the group, it must be left behind. Even if they are insiders, even if they'd been around for fifteen years, they must ditch the community's speech style and switch to a tone attuned to the institution. Chantards in academia can't go around calling people niggers or faggots, it's not gonna work out. They are forced to use a different type of rhetoric, and it will make them seem like outsiders one way or another. That's what I'm saying.
>>112907Yeah, I don't mean to make it look simple, Saitō makes the argument that it's not gay, period, because the otaku he interacted with maintained a sharp distinction between reality and fiction. He and the man he talks with in chapter 2 point towards the prevalence of lolicon and lack of proportional child abuse, but yeah, it's very complicated. The criticism he receives in the review pic above is that he marginalizes homotaku by stating that, actually, these people are all heterosexual, really. The label "gay" is less than ideal, anyways. Too monolithic, too victorian.
No.112910
>>112909Because homotaku are into bara generally
No.112913
saw the deleted post
No.112914
>>112882EVA is not one of the most important anime of all time, yes it's popular even in non-anime circles. But it didn't really have much impact on anime as a whole, it kind of stands as it's own thing.
No.112915
>>112914I have no idea what you're on about. Eva is singled out as the series that started the modern anime boom. There is an entire sub-genre/umbrella term for works that are seen as derivative of Eva (sekai-kei). Dozens if not hundreds of characters over the years have been called "Rei clones". Etc.
But the thing is, all of this isn't even that relevant to the discussion, since discourse on "otaku" is about fandom, not about the anime industry - meaning that "importance" in this context refers to the impact a work had on its audience and the way they view and engage with fictional media.
No.112916
huh neat term
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/セカイ系>そのため、当時は「ポストエヴァンゲリオン症候群」とも呼ばれていた。¥For this reason, it was also referred to as 'post-Evangelion syndrome' at the time. No.112918
>>112915Sailor Moon and Dragonball predate EVA and were also wildly popular.
Sekai-kei seems to be a small and hard to define genre that is not that connected to EVA.
Rei and Asuka are not good examples of the blue and red haired archetypes and they are also not the first. Asuka and Rei clones tend not to actually be Asuka or Rei clones on closer inspection, at least in all of the cases I have seen it applied.
The industry and fanbase are interconnected, the industry makes content for the fanbase and is made up of the fanbase. So if there was a change in the way the fanbase viewed and engaged with fictional media it would manifest itself in the industry as a whole.
This connects to Sekai-kei as well, even if it was inspired by EVA, it's still a small genre and not a reflection of the industry as a whole. EVA did not change most anime and most anime did not follow the kind of story or topic that EVA does.
To give an example of anime that really were important to anime as a whole you would have to see widespread impact on following anime after it was released.
I think anime like SAO(even if it's terrible), K-ON, Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon all had a much larger impact than EVA did.
No.112919
>>112918>Sailor Moon and Dragonball predate EVA and were also wildly popular."Anime boom" is not a popularity contest, it's a historically verifiable and widely agreed upon phenomenon. Incidentally, Eva started the so-called third anime boom. The first one was started by Astro Boy, the first television anime, and the second by Yamato, the series that put the word "anime" into common usage.
>Sekai-kei seems to be a small and hard to define genre that is not that connected to EVA.The creator of the term said it was originally a way to make fun of stuff he saw as Eva rip-offs. The definition of the term is not the point - the point is that it exists at all.
>Rei and Asuka are not good examples of the blue and red haired archetypes and they are also not the first. Asuka and Rei clones tend not to actually be Asuka or Rei clones on closer inspection, at least in all of the cases I have seen it applied.Again, retarded term but the point is it exists. Think about why people don't call them "Nagato clones" or "genderswapped Chiricos".
>So if there was a change in the way the fanbase viewed and engaged with fictional media it would manifest itself in the industry as a whole.There was a massive change in the mentality of the fandom and Japanese society at large, this was followed by significant changes in the industry such as the emergence of late-night anime following the high viewership rates of late-night Eva reruns, and widespread adoption of the production committee business model which Eva pioneered.
Finally, and I cannot stress this enough, none of this is my "opinion" or what I "think". You can find the same information repeated by countless people on many different places, be it books and videos from people like Otaking, interviews with industry figures, random message boards, or even Wikipedia articles for starters.
No.112922
>>112919How exactly would one verify it as a boom? Because there were many popular and widely watched anime that came out not long before EVA such as Dragon Ball as well as popular anime released at the same time as EVA such as Ghost in the Shell and then popular and widespread anime from shortly after EVA such as Cowboy Bepop. So I don't see how it could be verified as a boom.
The reason people call them Rei Clones is partly due to how popular EVA is particularly in the west and also due to the nature of people that watch EVA. The people that are fans of EVA are on average much more normal than those that would watch other anime and often the people calling a character a Rei clone are doing it to insult a character form an anime they don't care for in a genre of anime they also don't care for and to imply superiority of their own favourite anime. I'm not saying all are like that just that it's more common.
If there was a massive change it would have manifested in subsequent media, which it did not.
I can't say much on the industrial side in that sense as it's not something visible in media that would then show a shift in the taste of the fanbase, spreading the production committee model is more about how anime is made than what the end product is or who it's made for.
Though I will say that there was always late night anime, it did not emerge after EVA.
It's the opinion of others and what others think, which then forms your opinion and what you think. Which does have relevance to this thread being just how relevant and in touch the opinions of academics and commentators are.
No.112923
My burger gen x parents watched astro boy and gatchaman, its so weird to think there was a time it was popular but not referred to as anime
No.112924
>>112922>How exactly would one verify it as a boom?The same way you verify any other social and historical phenomenon.
>The reason people call them Rei Clones is partly due to how popular EVA is particularly in the westExcept it has Simpsons-level cultural ubiquity in Japan, and they also call characters Rei clones.
>If there was a massive change it would have manifested in subsequent media, which it did not.>spreading the production committee model is more about how anime is made than what the end product is or who it's made for.>Though I will say that there was always late night anime, it did not emerge after EVA.You are mistaken. Late night timeslots as a vehicle for "serious" anime aimed at older audiences and usually not based on an existing IP only became a thing after Eva. The rest of the industry adopted production committees and late night slots after Eva's commercial success proved their viability.
>Which does have relevance to this thread being just how relevant and in touch the opinions of academics and commentators are.No offense, but do you think your opinions are in touch? It appears you don't have much interest in learning about the history of anime, the social context in which it's produced and how the industry works, and prefer to focus on western internet discourse. If that's the case, it would make you far more myopic and out of touch than the people you're denouncing.
No.112925
I've been to the eva store, I was disappointed they were not selling the bucket
No.112926
This was some time ago. It would be interesting to see if the foundations of the subculture have changed now
No.112927
>>112924That does not really answer the question. That would be judged by popularity and impact on this industry but as I said there were many other popular anime before after and during EVA and the impact it had on the industry was not that large.
Yes, so that still shows that the reason they call them Rei clones is still because of the mainstream nature of EVA and the fact that many who watch it don't watch or care for other genres.
Dirty Pair came out in 1985. Late night adult anime had been done before EVA.
Saying no offensive does not change what you are trying to do, which is an an hominem attack in an attempt to discredit me. You should be careful about this as it is the kind of thing that is likely to turn this into a mudslinging cat fight. After all, the natural response to that would be something like 'well no offence but that just shows that you yourself do not care for the history of anime and are judging anime as a whole on EVA simply because it's so widely known amongst casual anime viewers and you are a casual viewer with no knowledge of the history of anime'.
You can of course see what this would lead too. I'm not saying you are a casual viewer or whatever, just be careful about how you try to present yourself and how what you say will change the course of a discussion.
To be fair, I am guilty of this too and it's actually why I deleted my first response to
>>112915 as in my first response I said something like 'you forget Sailor Moon and Dragonball' which comes across as confrontational as well and is not constructive so I deleted it and changed it.
No.112929
>>112927>That does not really answer the question.Data and historical sources.
>Yes, so that still shows that the reason they call them Rei clones is still because of the mainstream nature of EVA and the fact that many who watch it don't watch or care for other genres.Yes, in other words Eva was a huge success and remained in public consciousness for a long time.
>Dirty Pair came out in 1985. Late night adult anime had been done before EVA.Dirty Pair did not air in a late night time slot. Please, this is easily verifiable information.
>Saying no offensive does not change what you are trying to do, which is an an hominem attack in an attempt to discredit me.I understand it may seem that way, but I promise it was an honest question, the reason being that you don't seem to understand the meaning of the term "anime boom" in the context of the history of anime in Japan.
No.112931
>>112929What data?
Yes, I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is it's impact on anime.
I am not sure where to find information on the air time of 80's anime, but still there were late night anime before EVA. Japanese Wikipedia has a page on it and says this.
>In the 1980s , " Heart Cocktail " (Nippon TV) in 1986 , " Lemon Angel " (Fuji TV) in 1987 , " Komatsu Sakyo Anime Theater " ( Mainichi Broadcasting ) in 1989 , " Seishu's Dining Table " ( Yomiuri TV , " 11PM " frame), 1992's " Super Tsugan " (Fuji TV, the first 30-minute frame late-night TV animation [Note 7] ), 1995 's " Go! Inanaka Table Tennis Club " ( TBS ), etc. was produced [21] . Although these works have become a hot topic, they are all single-shot attempts. Ryota Fujitsu , an anime critic , said that " Legend of the Galactic Heroes ", which was produced and released as an OVA , was released in 1990.The fact that it was broadcast in the late-night slot on TV Tokyo in 2008, and the existence of the Mainichi Broadcasting " Hero does not sleep " slot, which started in 1992, although it is a rebroadcast slot, is also known as ``one of the pioneers in developing the late-night slot in TV animation. [ 21 ] It has also been pointed out that the short animation " Wonderful Anime", which was broadcast in TBS's late-night variety show "Wonderful" from 1997 , was a big hit .>In the latter half of the 1990s , " Neon Genesis Evangelion ", which was broadcast on TV Tokyo affiliates on Wednesday evenings in 1995 and became very popular , was rebroadcast several times in the late-night hours of TV Tokyo. As a), it hit a tremendous number [21] , and recorded an exceptionally high audience rating even on rebroadcasts or delayed nets on other affiliated stations and local stations in various places [23] . Azuma Kaseki , who used to be the producer of the animation department at TV Tokyo , points out that the rebroadcast of "Neon Genesis Evangelion" in 1997 had a great response . In addition, " Arrest Chauzo " , which is based on a popular manga, also received a great response [Note 8] .>Meanwhile, TV Tokyo began to pioneer the late-night animation frame, starting with " Things Hunting Elves " broadcasted in 1996 . At that time, the commercialization of digital animation , which was advantageous for mass production , and the establishment of the production committee system, which was mentioned in the overview , made it easier to raise funds. The frame just came to function as a saucer for that [21] . In response to this, other key stations in Tokyo, stations in Osaka , and famous stations began to enter the late-night anime business one after another.>I understand it may seem that way, but I promise it was an honest question,I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and move on.
>the reason being that you don't seem to understand the meaning of the term "anime boom" in the context of the history of anime in Japan.I've explained why I have an issue with that term.
No.112934
>>112931>What data?Print media, sales figures, industry-related numbers, etc.
>I am not sure where to find information on the air time of 80's animeOn what basis did you confidently assert that Dirty Pair was a late night anime? Anyway, wikipedia and anime databases.
>there were late night anime before EVAI didn't say Eva was the very first, I said:
>Late night timeslots as a vehicle for "serious" anime aimed at older audiences and usually not based on an existing IP only became a thing after Eva.And of course wikipedia corroborates that, as does the reference for that paragraph:
>東さんは、劇場版公開（97年）前に「新世紀エヴァンゲリオン」が深夜帯で再放送されたことが、深夜アニメが本格化するきっかけになったという。Also on wikipedia, you can find a list of late night anime aired every year, feel free to take a look at it:
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B7%B1%E5%A4%9C%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8B%E3%83%A1%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7 (Eva is February 1997)
>I've explained why I have an issue with that term.Without understanding its meaning and usage?
No.112935
>>112934Stating it like that does not really help. You should show this data and then state why that makes it an anime bust.
On the basis that something with that rating would be aired at night.
Your Wikipedia link states numerous serious anime aimed at older people that were aired before EVA, in January of the same year was Eat Man. The year before there is Those who hunt elves which
>>112931 credits as being the pioneer of late night anime.
But moving on, in 1992 there is Super Zugan and in 1990 there was Legend of Galactic heroes which
>>112931 mentions as well.
I know it's meaning and usage.
No.112936
>>112935>Stating it like that does not really help. You should show this data and then state why that makes it an anime bust.No, read this.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%96%B0%E4%B8%96%E7%B4%80%E3%82%A8%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A1%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B2%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AA%E3%83%B3#%E7%A4%BE%E4%BC%9A%E7%9A%84%E5%BD%B1%E9%9F%BFAnd this for good measure.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%86%E3%83%AC%E3%83%93%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8B%E3%83%A1#%E3%82%A2%E3%83%8B%E3%83%A1%E3%83%96%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0>On the basis that something with that rating would be aired at night.So it was a baseless assumption, then.
>Your Wikipedia link states numerous serious anime aimed at older people that were aired before EVADisregarding the relevance of these titles, once again:
>Late night timeslots as a vehicle for "serious" anime aimed at older audiences and usually not based on an existing IP only became a thing after Eva.A "vehicle" means a mainstay that captured its own distinct audience, not a one-show-a-year thing. Please also stop ignoring parts of the article that you pasted yourself just because you don't like them.
No.112937
>>112936What about it? You should make a point and then use the link as a source not tell somebody to read a link.
I read it but I'll wait for your point so that I can comment on that rather than try to mind read what you are trying to say here, I think I can guess and I disagree but I will let you say it.
I have also read the second link, it contains no Data and you have not posted an argument but I will comment on it in this case anyway.
By Boom it just lists periods of time that saw a Growth in anime(but there is no Data here to support it) and the third boom is a period that starts with EVA, this doesn't mean that it was caused by EVA or that EVA even had much to do with it, that's if there even was a boom.
You would need to put forth Data that shows both that there was a boom and then also that shows that EVA caused it and not growth from other popular media that it mentions like Pokemon.
>So it was a baseless assumption, then.It was based on the assumption that something with a rating like that would be aired at night, like I said.
>Disregarding the relevance of these titles, once again:Wikipedia seems to think they were quiet relevant, it calls Those who hunt Elves the pioneer of Late night anime. Was it? I don't know maybe it was but I think there were probably quite a few background factors that contributed to it.
>A "vehicle" means a mainstay that captured its own distinct audience, not a one-show-a-year thing.That's not what vehicle means particularly not in that context. A vehicle is
a medium through which something is expressed, achieved, or displayed. In the context you used it in Late night anime would be the Medium and whatever was aired would be the something being displayed.
A vehicle isn't something that captures a distinct audience. Yes a vehicle could do that but it's not what they all do or what they are.
Having said that, by all accounts I think Legends of Galactic Heroes did capture a distinct audience and Those who hunt elves seems to have been popular and might have captured an audience at the time, whatever that means and however one would even judge that.
Having said all this, I don't disagree that EVA has it's own captured audience.
>Please also stop ignoring parts of the article that you pasted yourself just because you don't like them.This could be construed as confrontational and counterproductive again. If you think I have ignored something then tell me what that is and why you think it's relevant. I can't read minds.
No.112941
>>112937The thing is, all the data you are asking for has already been presented by several sources.
That's why the "anime boom" concept and Eva's impact are spoken of as given facts. Anyone who is interested can easily find things such as sales numbers for various Eva-related products (e.g. http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~yato/eva/uri.htm), or accounts of Eva's unprecedentedly high social visibility with concrete examples. (e.g.
https://urbanlife.tokyo/post/49473/)
>this doesn't mean that it was caused by EVA or that EVA even had much to do with itIt is quite literally what 発生要因 means.
>it calls Those who hunt Elves the pioneer of Late night anime.The wikipedia article doesn't point out any single work as the sole pioneer, because obviously that's not how it works.
>That's not what vehicle means particularly not in that context. A vehicle is a medium through which something is expressed, achieved, or displayed.No, "vehicle" is very much used in that manner.
>After all, Gen-Z has used the app as a vehicle to broadcast some of our most beloved decor trends, including the nugget couch [...]>The Press of the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design was established in 1972 as a vehicle to publish books by and about [...]The medium is television, and the vehicle is late night timeslots, a particular subset/instance of television programming.
>I think Legends of Galactic Heroes did capture a distinct audience and Those who hunt elves seems to have been popular and might have captured an audience at the timeThis is not what I'm talking about. When the LoGH rerun aired, nobody talked about "late night anime", because it was literally the only show airing. Before Eva "late night anime" as a distinct entity with its own characteristics and tendencies did not exist.
>This could be construed as confrontational and counterproductive again.You don't think making shit up just because it sounds plausible to you and trying to pass it off as truth is confrontational and counterproductive?
No.112942
>>112941No, the data was not presented.
I have never denied that EVA was popular and I do not deny that it has sold a lot of merchandise. What I disagree with is the idea that it created an anime boom as it did not.
Yes, it was popular and yes it did make money but it was not alone in that and it was not the cause of anime making money or being popular during that period. As I have said, there was allot of popular anime coming out before EVA but there was also allot of popular anime coming out during and after EVA and for example Pokemon, which your source lists in that boom, made allot of money(it's the most profitable franchise in existence) and had a large viewership but it also had nothing to do with EVA.
It does actually point out an anime as being the pioneer, it says it about Those who hunt Elves.
I agree that's not how it works and that's kind of related to what this discussion is about in the first place. It doesn't work regarding EVA either.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here, because the quotes you give are following the definition I gave, not what you said vehicle means.
You said
>A "vehicle" means a mainstay that captured its own distinct audience, not a one-show-a-year thingThat's not what those quotes say and it's not what you yourself are even saying now.
If you look at your Wikipedia link again
>>112934 you will see that in 1996 only those who hunt elves aired and then in the year following 16 aired of which EVA was the second in that year.
EVA was just one of 16 it was not the cause of those other 16 or the cause of the trend as a whole.
And those who hunt elves aired in October of the previous year so it could probably almost be considered part of that sudden boom.
>You don't think making shit up just because it sounds plausible to you and trying to pass it off as truth is confrontational and counterproductive?I think it is and I wish you would stop doing it but calling you out on it in that way is not going to be productive at all.
Joking aside though, as I have said numerous times, if you have a rebuttal to anything I say then say it, if you have an argument and have data then make that argument and present that data.
No.112943
>>112942>No, the data was not presented.The data was presented and there isn't a conspiracy to fabricate a phenomenon out of thin air, like it or not.
>What I disagree with is the idea that it created an anime boom as it did not. Again, your opinion which goes against the opinion of pretty much the entirety of Japan.
>It does actually point out an anime as being the pioneer, it says it about Those who hunt Elves.It does not say this. You're reading words that are not there.
>I think it is and I wish you would stop doing it but calling you out on it in that way is not going to be productive at all.It became obvious that you were never interested in an earnest, productive discussion the moment you made up some bullshit about Dirty Pair without even bothering to take a minute to check it.
No.112944
>>112943Simply saying that data has been presented when it was not does not make it true.
You claim to be able to speak for all of Japan now do you? Not that it would matter even if you could. The entirety of a nation can still be wrong, in fact that's usually the case.
>it became obvious that you were never interested in an earnest, productive discussion the moment you made up some bullshit about Dirty Pair without even bothering to take a minute to check it.And once I was told that it did not air at this time I accepted that and moved on, unlike some people here who both never acknowledged there own mistakes and instead trying to change the definition of a word and change it back again rather than just admit that there had been late night anime before EVA.
Making a mistake and then accepting it does not show disinterest in a productive discussion, what you are doing does.
No.112945
>>112944The article which you say contains no data states its references very clearly. There are alternative sources with largely the same info. If you want to cast all this into doubt, that's entirely on you.
>You claim to be able to speak for all of Japan now do you?I claim that you can literally verify for yourself what the general perception in Japan is like by doing a cursory search for terms like "エヴァンゲリオン 社会現象", "第3次アニメブーム" and so on, talking to Japanese people, seeking out videos or articles that talk about Eva and anime history, etc. But I know you won't do any of that.
>admit that there had been late night anime before EVAFor the I think 4th time now? I never said it was THE VERY FIRST, what I said was:
>Before Eva "late night anime" as a distinct entity with its own characteristics and tendencies did not exist.>Making a mistake and then accepting it does not show disinterest in a productive discussion, what you are doing does.You did not make a mistake, you had this information at your fingertips and you chose to lie.
No.112946
>>112945If you believe that they show such data, then show it. What's stopping you? If that's what it's saying you should easily be able to show that.
So then if you did the same thing only with a western show and applied it to the west, that would mean you could speak for the entire west?
But anyway As I said before, even if that were true it does not matter.
What matters is this data that you say you have, the data that proves that it was EVA that caused an anime boom.
You said.
>Late night timeslots as a vehicle for "serious" anime aimed at older audiences and usually not based on an existing IP only became a thing after Eva.If you were a reasonable person like me(not to toot my own horn or anything) you would just admit that there were other late night anime before it.
And also as I said, even if EVA aired as part of this first boom EVA was still part of the boom, not the cause of it.
I never had this information at my fingertips, all I did was type Dirty Pair into google to find it's air date and the site that listed it(MAL) didn't show it's air time. In fact most sites don't.
If I had known that it did not air at that time I would not have bothered mentioning it.
You are really clutching at straws now.
No.112947
>>112946>If you believe that they show such data, then show it. What's stopping you? If that's what it's saying you should easily be able to show that.You... you realize they're paper books, right? I already posted other sources that talk about/illustrate Eva's impact, here's an interview with Yamakan where he talks about how difficult it is to
not be influenced by Eva:
https://news.mynavi.jp/techplus/article/20100721-senyama/>So then if you did the same thing only with a western show and applied it to the west, that would mean you could speak for the entire west?What part of "general perception" do you not understand? Yes, I make the claim that most people (
general perception) in the Anglosphere think Breaking Bad, Seinfeld and The Wire are good shows. What about it?
>you would just admit that there were other late night anime before it.I already did that several times, and every time you miss the point. Please, learn what programming blocks are.
>If I had known that it did not air at that time I would not have bothered mentioning it.You don't understand. The fact that you thought Dirty Pair, from 1985, was a late night anime in the first place shows your ignorance of anime history. You might as well have thrown in City Hunter or Cobra or something in there for good measure.
No.112949
Sopranos was the EVA of western TV
No.112950
>>112947If that's so then wouldn't much of what you said be disingenuous? Given that you were saying you had presented data even though you then say it's only available in paper.
But regardless, in the end that still means you don't have data to show.
I read the interview you posted
Director Hiroshi Yamamoto talks about the impact of "Eva" on the film industryThat interview with a director regarding his inspiration for a live action project is not data.
And yes I know he has directed anime but that's directing not creating and he's not even saying that he used EVA as inspiration to direct anime.
This isn't about whether or not the general perception of Japan is positive or negative towards a given show.
This is was the exchange that brought this up.
>What I disagree with is the idea that it created an anime boom as it did not. >Again, your opinion which goes against the opinion of pretty much the entirety of Japan.That's not a matter of whether the average Japanese person likes EVA or not. That's you assuming that 'pretty much the entirety of Japan' believes EVA created an anime boom and furthermore that it somehow even matters if that's what the common person believes(given that as I said, most views held by the population as a whole are wrong).
You didn't, you just kept changing the goal posts and then you tried to change the definition of English.
None of which addresses my points and nor does 'learn what programming blocks are'. If you think you know what they are and you think that your knowledge of them has led you to some insight relevant to this discussion, then make some kind of point.
You are still clutching at straws, but then that's befitting of the expression I suppose.
No.112951
Just for fun I thought I would see if Japan actually does like Eva.
https://whatjapanthinks.com/2009/07/16/neon-genesis-evangelion-liked-by-many-japanese/33.5% like it.
31.3% don't like it
35.3% don't know it.
But this is just for fun and I'm not saying it is a true representation of Japan.
It's interesting though.
No.112957
eva is still a niche topic and what did it actually spawn to be considered influential? Everyone has seen it but most would rather watch k-on and more serious arts stuff like madoka traces back to mahou shojo more than teen angst.
No.112958
Rather, Revolutionary Girl Utena has had a huge effect on Japanese animated art. If it was popular and brought it mainstream... hey alright... but who cares. It's influence on animation ends as soon as you watch other shows
No.112959
>>112957is this bait
it seems like bait
No.112960
>>112949What is the
G A B A G O O L moment in EVA
No.112961
>>112959you're just kinda passionate in the wrong way. Eva isn't popular anymore.
No.112967
>>112966The Pokemon Movie... now that's a legendary animation that's not going away
No.112969
>>112966I tried demon slayer, I dont understand the appeal...
No.112970
>>112966Milo and Otis is better than Evangelion, confirmed
No.112977
>>112969The movie or the series? Maybe watching the movie by itself would make it less enjoyable.
I don't think there is much to understand, it's just a fun shounen.
No.112982
>>112970Huh, I never knew that Milo and Otis was a Japanese film. Probably watched that movie dozens of times when I was a kid, was one of my favorites.
No.112990
Shouldn't have looked into Milo and Otis. Pretty psycho film crew
No.112992
>>112990Is any of it confirmed, or is it all an urban legend? There's countless SEO articles about rumors of animal abuse in the film but there does not seem to be any actual evidence of it.
No.113006
eva is so popular that it hijacked the thread twice simply because it appeared in the op pic
even appeared in
>>>/poll/3160 out of the blue and nobody batted an eye
No.113007
I love a beautiful fighting girl
No.113009
" Anime culture heavily split in two ways after Evangelion released" Hiroki Azuma, Ph.D from the University of Tokyo
>A lot of you probably maintain a single image of anime culture. But in Japan, it is actually heavily split in two ways. This happened in 1995. It was the year when Evangelion was first released. This anime led the split, but it also carries both elements. On one side, it depicts the “real” emotional conflicts of a teenager, and battle scenes are also highly realistic. But on the other hand, it also expresses fictive quality of a symbolic imagination. This split is becoming deeper and deeper.
>In the 80s, otaku works made up for a lack of Japanese national objectives. They had big themes: law, or justice, or a kind of nationalism. Works like Space Battleship Yamato or Gundam can be analyzed as a kind of supplement.
>[The young generation] don’t need narratives, they don’t need objectives. They need communication. I think they want a kind of entertainment infrastructure, a way to kill time and chat on the internet. Maybe otaku entertainment is now only a kind of platform.
>In any case, if you only look at what’s produced…to tell you the truth, as this is something we haven’t said at all, but in Japan people have actually given up on the future and potential for anime and games. This is because it has been ten years since Evangelion, and we still haven’t had anything that exceeds it, to put it bluntly. Of course, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex is truly great and I mean it, but it’s not easy to exceed Evangelion, right?
>To put it simply, it is as if things have stopped for the last ten years. In the last decade, we’ve only accumulated more and more fictional, symbol-laden stories with lots of cute girls. What in the world is going on here? That’s the general impression of otaku in Japan. At the same time, we know that there is something that makes this necessary.
No.113010
" If Evangelion did not become such a hit, probably we could not have made anime like we do now", Akiyuki Shinbo, director of Madoka Magic
>[Shinbo talks about making Madoka Magica] -.... with the change in style, producers from the same age group finally appeared. And finally the flow that had one joining because he loved anime started to change. But whatever is said, the impact of "Evangelion" becoming a hit was huge. Without that there could not be the time we have now.
>Q - You think so?
>- Yes, no doubt about it. If that did not become such a hit, probably we could not have made anime like we do now. But then only "Evangelion" was really a kind of exception
No.113011
Toshio Okada " Whatever we discuss today, we cannot avoid Eva "
>To me, Eva was all about "Since I can’t do anything about changing the world, I will do something about myself." Don’t you think "robot anime" is all about "trying to change the world"? Morikawa-san, you talked about the apocalyptic. One step before that is "social reform" (yo-naoshi). One of the key concepts for understanding otaku is "a child’s sense of justice." The reason grown-ups are enthusiastic about Kamen Rider and the "warrior team" genre (sentai mono) is because that basic sense of justice, which we abandoned in society a long time ago, is still meaningful in the world of these TV shows. Of course, there’s also the terrific monster designs and panchira [the fleeting display of girls’ panties], but that’s not enough to keep the boys interested. That basic sense of justice worked until Eva. But with Eva, it became clear that no one could save the world. And Eva complicated the whole thing, raising issues such as "Maybe I should at least save myself" and "What’s wrong with me, thinking only about saving myself?" Eva marked a turning point. Whatever we discuss today, we cannot avoid Eva.
No.113012
TV Tokyo Fukashi Azuma "A social phenomenon like what happened in Eva would never happen now"
>According to Azuma-san, the re-broadcast of Neon Genesis Evangelion in midnight time slots just before the release of the movies (1997) was the start of the Midnight Anime as an established business. Azuma-san was working in the business (department) on this project then. As he looked back he said "Usually (in midnight slots) a rating of 2% was considered to be the pass mark, and since Eva had 5-6%, I started to think "this could go to midnight!""
>At the time, the anime hours in TV Tokyo was 6pm and for an anime like Eva which had a difficult theme, the tendency (if it is broadcast in that time slot) would probably be an uphill battle on rating which is the "lifeblood" for a TV station. Besides, the development of the midnight time slots was also a windfall to the TV station.
>According to Japan Animation Society, the number of titles of TV anime was stuck at 70-90 in the years from 1990 to 1997 but in 1998 it broke through the 100 mark. As other TV stations saw the success of midnight anime in TV Tokyo, they also took up similar approach, and in 2006 it reached a peak of 279 titles.
>However since 2010, the number TV anime titles had decreased for 4 years in row and was down to 195. In the meantime, anime in golden time slots has almost disappeared.
>Azuma-san is worried, "In the case of midnight anime, it is hard to spread its appeal to the mainstream audience. In truth a social phenomenon like what happened in Eva would never happen now." He is also mindful of the shift among the anime viewers. The spread of internet means there is more information available and opportunity to know about more works has also increased, but it also means works favored by fans can get over-concentrated, according to Azuma-san.
No.113013
Takashi Murakami "Evangelion is the endpoint of the post-war lineage of otaku favorites : from Godzilla to the Ultra series to Yamato to Gundam"
>The controversial final two episodes of the TV series, which unconventionally mix anime scenes with drawings and video footage, focus on Shinji, the central character among the pilots, and his painful search for what his life means both as a person and as an Evangelion pilot. With the purposeless Shinji's interior drama taking center stage, Evangelion is the endpoint of the postwar lineage of otaku favorites : from Godzilla to the Ultra series to Yamato to Gundam, in which hero-figures increasingly question and agonize over their righteous missions to defend the earth and humanity. Shinji's identity crisis, apparently a reflection of the director Anno’s own psychological dilemmas, epitomized the difficult obstacles faced by postwar Japan, a nation that had recovered from the trauma of war only to find itself incapable of creating its own future: like Shinji, Japan is probing the root cause of its existential paralysis.
No.113014
Yamakan "I don't think anyone in our generation will make an anime that moves the industry, Japan, and the world as Anno and Miyazaki did."
>[Yamakan] I wrote my graduation thesis at Kyoto University on Miyazaki's Princess Mononoke and the movie version of Anno's Neon Genesis Evangelion. These were epoch-making films. I don't think anyone in our generation will make an anime that moves the industry, Japan, and the world as these two did.
>So no anime will ever match these?
>[Yamakan] I hope it will. I don't know what post-Eva anime is, but it's insulting to these masters if we don't try to make it. It's also irresponsible not to try and make work that resonates with our times. But no matter how you look at it, what can be done in anime has been. Genres, forms of expression, themes, characters, it's all been exhausted. So what can we do? Only copy, and add our own little bits along the way.
No.113015
Mamoru Oshii "The first show to skillfully use the impact and power of words and visualized it was Eva.'
>"After Eva ended, there were a mountain of shows similar to it, but all they did was trace the details.
>"With both movies and animated works, there's a lot in them that you have to reinforce with visuals, which is even truer for sci-fi, where you need vast amounts of details and situations. It's a lot of work even under normal circumstances, but now, there aren't enough people. With Eva, it was like all the people involved were designers, from the director to the animators, so they managed to hang in there until the end, but aside from unique studios like that, if you look at how well today's studios can cope with the amount of details that a story requires, it's hopeless"
>....."The first show to skillfully use the impact and power of words and visualized it was Eva.'
No.113016
'I felt my brain had been smacked hard after just watching the opening theme.' Kinoko Nasu, co-founder of Type-Moon
>Overall, the cause was because of watching the first episode of Neon Genesis Evangelion, which can't have been ignored by neither I nor my contemporaries. The story goes back to my high school days, where I met Takeuchi-kun. At the time I announced that I will become a novelist in the future, and Takeuchi-kun said he will become a manga artist, this was like the plot of some popular manga, and in reality we talked to each other quite a bit. Thinking back on it now, it was pretty embarrassing (laughs). Since then, we both graduated from college, Takeuchi-kun went to work at a game company, and I found a local job. I had the casual goal of "finding some time to write a novel," and I didn't notice my dream was slowly being buried while I lived idly as the day by day. Neon Genesis Evangelion was what gave me a big push in the back... or should I say kicked me and sent me flying. Not even the first episode itself, I felt my brain had been smacked hard after just watching the opening theme. My heart thought, how can someone think to bring the PV (Promotion Video) method to anime? How ideas can be expressed so freely in anime? "If there are people in this world who are so ahead of the rest, what am I still being confused about?" My heart was severely shocked. I supposed Eva has the charm and enthusiasm that makes people think "I have to do something." I'm sure of it. Instead of idly saying "when I have time next time," I should at least write something.
No.113017
Madhouse Fuuta Takei 'Eva changed the perception of anime in the public consciousness.'
>Fuuta pinpoints Evangelion as the catalyst for what eventually became the modern industry business model of creating shows that exist as advertisements for their home video release. Eva didn’t just change the perception of anime in the public consciousness, it also sold 1.5 million copies on laserdisc alone, opened the floodgates on shows geared towards otaku, and was instrumental in creating a concept Fuuta refers to as “My Anime”: niche shows with early-morning TV timeslots that shoot to make their money back on home video sales.
No.113018
"Higurashi wouldn't have been born without Evangelion." -says Ryukishi07
>Reporter: In what way have your works been influenced by EVA?
>Ryukishi07: It has taught me that there is a way to play a game by considering the world view. Things like, in the OP, what is the true nature of that shining man of which we only get a fleeting reflection? What is the Human Instrumentality Project? This way to play can be done for games, anime, etc. I've realized it can also be applied to stories. Perhaps, this way of playing considering the appearance of the world could be exerting a strong influence in "Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni". Higurashi only presented this way of playing once again, in that meaning, one could definitely say it's a work that wouldn't have been born without EVA.
>Reporter: Please express to us your thoughts and enthusiasm about EVA.
>Ryukishi07: As of yet I don't know the amount of influence that EVA has exerted on the game scenario. I can't really say how much of EVA has crossed over all the presentation and direction of the game. It's also a magnificent work, one that stands over the rest, and, perhaps, the way we've continued after it is a disappointment*. What can we take, what tales we'll be able to spin from this magnificent story? EVA was good, but when it ended ** it seems we haven't learned anything from it. To understand something from this work, and make games and anime with really interesting content well known, we will have to make a much stronger effort, I think.
No.113019
good posts
i looked up higurashi since i didn't know that one and came across this other collection with links
https://shuttershocky.tumblr.com/post/161571354781/do-you-think-nge-had-a-significant-impact-on-the/amp No.113020
I'm not going to spend to much time on this as there is too much here to be anything but brief.
>>113009Disagree, that was there before and nothing much came from EVA. Also that's just an opinion.
I agree that nothing has come close to EVA though and that kind of furthers my point. Nothing has come close to EVA because EVA is it's own thing.
>>113010Disgree, that's also just an opinion.
Though I will say Madoka is closer in it's themes to EVA than most other anime is.
>>113011Disagree, also just an opinion.
I think it's silly to say that anime has now moved away from Justice, it's not any more or less focused on Justice than it was before.
But then is that interview even about anime or society as a whole?
>>113012We have already been over this, EVA was not the first late night anime and was also only one of 16 that released in that year.
>>113013That's another opinion.
>>113014That's about Miyazaki as well and is also just an opinion. I'm not starting an argument about Miyazaki as well.
Though I will say that many anime and anime films have moved the industry more than those two have.
Also, that''s the same guy you already posted.
>>112947>>113015No it wasn't. Though that was another opinion.
There was no mountain of shows similar to it either.
>>113016That's about the OP and also an opinion.
>>113017In the public consciousness? Maybe. As I have said many times, it is quite popular among normal people who don't watch much anime, so if they have not watched much and EVA has left an impression on them then yes, that will be what they remember about anime. Though the same could be said for Pokemon, Naruto or Dragonball.
It was not the only anime to sell a lot of DVDs or VCRs nor even the first.
>>113018That's just him praising it and he could have learnt that elsewhere.
Okay all done. Still no Data though...
No.113022
>>113020Aren't the opinions of relevant industry figures important?
No.113023
>>113022No, you can't deny the possibility that every single one of them is wrong or lying.
No.113024
>>113022They are, kind off, depending on what you are actually looking for. Though presented like you have they essentially are just anecdotes. Also this
>>113023But anyway.
A few people saying that they take inspiration form something does not mean much or say anything about the industry as a whole or even say how much inspiration they have taken from that one thing compared to everything else.
To see the impact one anime had on the industry as a whole you would have to look at tangible data but also examine the anime that came after it.
So for tangible data one might look at the profits made by Pokemon or the huge number of One Piece volumes sold.
And in regards to subsequent anime a good example would be whatever started the gameworld/isekai trend,(I'm not going to name a name as that will just start another argument).
But regardless of who you ascribe it to, you can clearly see this trend and you can clearly see the influence it had, you don't need an interview to tell you but most people who were inspired by it probably would not tell you they inspired by it anyway because it would make them look like copy cats and it's and not as fashionable to claim inspiration from as something like EVA.
No.113025
>>113024But your argument is basically "no, they're all wrong." I think that's silly, and that
>>113023 was a joke.
No.113026
>>113025Well I have explained what I think about what they said and if they are wrong or not.
But they are also not presenting data or really an argument at all. Sure, one does say that EVA sold 15 million DVDs but he does not then compare that to the DVDs and VCRs that other anime have sold. But then that's fine because they are interviews, they aren't analytical looks into markets or trends or anything.
But also you could find interviews with industry figures praising an anime like that about many anime and that also does not mean much, essentially all that means is that they like x anime.
No.113027
>>113026>many animeNot to Eva's degree. If it's fashionable to say it influenced you, like you argue, doesn't that mean it
did influence things? Does any other scenario exist where everyone just pretends to care about a universally acclaimed work, but in reality simply disregard it? Where everyone just
believes it did something, but in reality didn't? Because I'm not aware of any such cases.
>they like x animeAnd isn't that what causes influence?
No.113028
>>113026That's because to date it's the best-selling TV anime ever, and at the time there wasn't anything comparable in sales.
No.113029
>>113027Not everybody does pretend to care about it and a lot of the people that you have posted are directors, artist(not of the anime kind), writers(not Mangaka but just screen writers), producers and such. I'm not saying no Mangaka would say the same thing and you have posted creatives that do, but it's just interesting that it's producers and artists(not of the anime kind) who are the ones more likely to be saying it.
I also would not say that everybody believes it did something either or that they all believe it did something to the anime industry, look at this
>>112951 for example, it's probably not 100% accurate but still.
Anyway. Yes there are many such cases that exist, most of the time it's actually the case. I'm sure every writer will tell you how important Shakespeare was and that they love his work and are heavily influenced by it but how many actually incorporate that into their work? I don't think there are any Shakespearian writers.
>And isn't that what causes influence?Well they don't all like EVA so not all would be influenced even if that was true.
But also, as I have said, EVA is it's own thing. Many Mangaka would like things that are completely different to what they are writing, like LOTR or trains or something but it's not related to their work so they don't use anything from it.
EVA does not fit the mould of what most anime is, and that's kind of the point and also one of the reasons I say it's not that important to the industry. Because it still stands out because the industry isn't trying to emulate it. It's almost not anime in a way.
And that also shows why so many of the people you quoted comes form the backgrounds they do and on that subject again, even if they were inspired by EVA it would not matter for most of the people you quoted as they are only adapting stories written by other people(or they are an unrelated artist).
No.113031
>>113029This is really tiresome.
You ignore the writers mentioned above such as Oshii, Ryuukishi, Nasu, you reject someone like Shinbo because he's "just" a director (might as well say Shaft is irrelevant while you're at it), you move the goalposts over to manga which hadn't come up so far (but you don't explain why it wouldn't touch that medium) and effectively argue that only changes in non-anime media can affect the anime industry, you quote a survey about public opinion on a notoriously controversial series while at the same time saying public opinion doesn't matter, you argue people
don't add the things they like to their works, and you haven't even bothered to google "Shakespeare influence"?
Do you not understand how absurd this is? I'm not even the other guy, I'm someone else.
No.113042
>>113031>You ignore the writers mentioned above such asNo I don't...
Shall I quote myself then shall I?
>I'm not saying no Mangaka would say the same thing and you have posted creatives that doThe writers I was ignoring were those like
>>113017 who as I said, is just a screen writer.
I'm not moving the goal posts to Managa just saying that most anime is based on a manga and not the creation of the director or producer themself so the producer's own inspirations don't play into it.
It probably would affect manga more than it does anime simply because there is so much more manga than anime and a lot of it never gets animated and the diversity of manga means that more kinds of story are told than in anime.
I'm only bringing up public opinion because it's all the other guy seems to care about while at the same time it seems it's not even in his favour. Says it's as controversial as you like, it's still a survey and the only one brought up. And no Survey is perfect anyway, as I even said.
What I meant regarding Shakespeareian influence was in reference to today's writers, not those of the past. What I was saying was that many modern wirers will praise him and claim inspiration from him but their works don't reflect that and are nothing like his. Maybe I should have spent more time explaining that but I assumed the context would make it obvious what I meant.
No.113063
>>113062I think we should bring it back and also utilize onomatopoeia more, a friend of mine was listening to a saudi football match and it was interesting to me how Arabic seems to have multiple forms of speaking depending on what the intent of something being said is and English feels limited compared to many in that regard
No.113064
Is there any writing on disabled otaku?
No.113074
Awareness rate of Evangelion among Japanese in their 10s and 20s (sample size 2,169):
>79.2% (10s)>73.2% (20s)https://lab.testee.co/2021z_trend23/Awaremess rate of Evangelion among ages 15-79 (sample size 1,200):
>65%Nippon Research Center survey (2020)
Agency of Cultural Affairs (Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology) top anime poll (sample size 80,402):
>1. Neon Genesis Evangelionhttps://web.archive.org/web/20061030110322/http://plaza.bunka.go.jp/hundred/bumon_anime.htmlBest-selling TV anime physical media of the 20th century (initial release only):
>1. Neon Genesis Evangelion 111,783>2. Dragon Ball GT 31,696>3. Kidou Senkan Nadesico 29,488someanithing data
Best-selling TV anime physical media of all time:
>1. Neon Genesis Evangelion 234,919>2. Uma Musume: Pretty Derby Season 2 196,859>3. Bakemonogatari 112,434someanithing data
Estimated awareness rate of Evangelion:
>56.98% (age 15-79)>over 99.5 (age 20-35)>7th highest for all animehttps://jp.知名度.net/detail/%E6%96%B0%E4%B8%96%E7%B4%80%E3%82%A8%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A1%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B2%E3%83%AA%E3%82%AA%E3%83%B3 No.113075
>>113064yeah, just read this thread
No.113076
>>113074Dragonball
GT??????????????¿ No.113077
i think kaguya lovewar would have outsold all of those domestically. Probably Free had higher sales.
Likely Oshi no Ko outsold these figures too based on how heavy it was advertised. Also chainsawman is a thing
No.113078
>>113075Evangelion sperging is just a tribute to everything moot did for the western anime community
No.113079
And let's also throw in One Piece. There's no more recognized anime today than One Piece.
No.113080
>>113077Kaguya sold under 5k, Free 30k, Chainsaw Man sold so bad that MAPPA complained. These are
physical media sales.
No.113081
>>113079Eh, OP is more known as a manga, "anchoring" SJ if you will (I'm sorry)
No.113082
>>113080Can you stop being a schizophrenic/bipolar tard for a single day?
No.113083
>>113082Don't shoot the messenger, them's the numbers
No.113084
>>113082At least they're not a cluster B if you're telling the truth
No.113085
If you don't shut up for 24 hours you're going to "win" the debate.
"One Piece
By August 2022, it had over 516.6 million copies in circulation in 61 countries and regions worldwide, making it the best-selling manga series in history"
If you tell me that Eva has more influence on animation and japanese culture than dragonball or Onepiece you will be banned until your mania flips back to depression.
No.113086
I think the real reason people object so much to EVA is because it reminds them of their adolescent regrets
No.113087
Look at the anime made today.
They're either romcoma or battle tournaments. Where is your victorious psychological mecha series which has changed the landscape??? It's no where. No one gives a shit about mecha and the psychological aspect of japanese media dates back to the 1900s.
Seriously.
No.113088
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No.113091
>>113089yeah, but I wasn't sure when those stories were written
No.113093
>>113087Nobody cares about mecha because there's nothing left to do with Real Robot, especially after Planet With and Super Robot is niche and more appealing to Kaiju and toku fans than general sci-fi fans
No.113097
>>113082wat
>>113085oh i see
projection
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) No.113098
grats. your perma sticky is now perma saged.
No.113127
i'm just gonna leave this here
http://library.lol/main/E079481C831AA6B2312330149958F3C6
￥What is Sekai-kei? Post-Eva Otaku History (2010)
can't read jap myself and the text is oriented incorrectly, but it's still interesting
No.113133
>>113086My problem with it is that it's boring and overly dramatic. It often comes across too much like 3d drama even to the point of being absurd, I actually burst out laughing when
the science lady professed her love to Shinji's dad.>>113087Mecha still exists and there is still a lot of it being made.
No.113160
>>113086honestly i just hate both of the endings
how do you get two chances to fix your ending and then manage to ruin both of them lol
a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶i̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶u̶s̶s̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶s̶u̶r̶r̶o̶u̶n̶d̶i̶n̶g
̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶s̶u̶f̶f̶e̶r̶a̶b̶l
̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶ ̶h̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶,̶ ̶i̶ ̶e̶s̶p̶e̶c̶i̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶u̶m̶b̶ ̶v̶i̶d̶e̶o̶ ̶e̶s̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶g̶u̶r̶g̶i̶t̶a̶t̶e
̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶k̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶A̶G̶A̶I̶N̶S̶T̶ ̶o̶t̶a̶k̶u̶ ̶c̶u̶l̶t̶u̶r̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶w̶'̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶u̶l̶t̶
i thought the first 20 or so episodes were cool
No.113176
>>113160If its really as inspired by gundam as people say, I like to think its making fun of Amuro letting trauma run his life for many years. If not, its probably about how those afflicted with personality disorders are doomed to unhappiness
No.113181
>>113085There aren't a whole lot of pirate odyssey stories being made, are there? In any case, by this metric you're just agreeing with
>>113074, it's the exact same argument.
But, if you want to learn about why you're wrong, go ahead and keep reading. I dare you, you aspie.
>>113134Yes, actually, that's very useful and I appreciate it, thank you. It uses the same sources as the Jap wiki article and then some, is way more thorough in its analysis, and then spends the latter half of the article detailing uncontroversial cases of sekai-kei.
The one that stands out to me the most is the "removal of a larger social context." Concretely, compared to something like Gundam (I believe Ideon to a lesser extent?), where there's war, there's politics, and the enemy is perfectly understandable, Eva has an apolitical organization isolated from any government, facing a handful of bizarre and incomprehensible abstract aliens that no one can communicate with, much weirder than your regular kaijuu. When the country's electric supply is diverted to power up the positron sniper rifle, there are no comments made on how it affects the rest of the country, how it impacts society, it's barely shown at all. It's entirely about the fight and the few people then and there, it's about Rei's smile.
Without society in play, there's a much bigger focus on the subject, and the "sekai" part is how their inner feelings, inner world is extended to be as important as the world itself even as it's about to end or going through some massive crisis. That's what the critics say, not me, I'm not making this up. There's more stuff to it, like a romance between a fighting bishoujo and a powerless MC, a relatively static daily life even admist the crisis, and other things, you should read it yourself. It's a better explanation than I expected, honestly. The genre is stated to have lasted until the late 2000s (with a brief revival in Madoka, I read elsewhere).
One of the examples universally given as "definitive sekai-kei" is Hoshi no Koe, coincidentally
a psychological mecha focused on the relationship between a sentou bishoujo (who's busy fighting mute aliens) and a powerless dude, authored by none other than
Makoto Shinkai, the mega blockbuster dude that makes original anime movies! There it is, there you have it! Fuck, its very first line of dialogue starts with a contemplation on what sekai is, precisely what the label makes fun of, then towards the end she has a conversation with an externalized herself, and it features zero other characters outside of those two. Even the Jap wiki says Shinkai makes sekai-kei. This discussion is officially over, anchor is superfluous, thank you very much mina-sama.
Buuuuut, not so fast. Let's go all the way back to Azuma's database book mentioned in
>>112861. Turns out he's immensely influential, I keep seeing references to him all over. This actually surprised me, because when I picked up the book I found him mentioning Eva dozens of times, directly linking it to a new type of otaku from a third generation. I take this to be the 第3次アニメブーム
>>112945 was talking about.
Azuma makes the point in characterizing the old Gundam fanbase as people who were looking for a traditional narrative, versus Eva fans who "did not really have a concern for the entire world of Evangelion," and which basically only cared about the setting insofar as it allowed them "to empathize with the story’s protagonist, to draw erotic illustrations of the heroine, and to build enormous robot figures." This fits in very well with the social criteria previously given for sekai-kei. Furthermore:
>This shift clearly appears again not only on the side of the consumers or the creators of derivative works but also from the point of view of the original creators.>The first television broadcast of Gundam in 1979 was followed by several well-known sequels. Most of those were developed along the lines of a single fictitious history under the supervision of the general director, Tomino Yoshiyuki. In the case of Evangelion, however, there were no sequels and no plans to make sequels.>Instead, the original creator’s production company, Gainax, developed the derivative works sold in the Comic Market and at the same time created plans for related concepts; for instance, there are mahjong games, erotic telephone card designs using the Evangelion characters, and even simulation games in which players nurture the heroine Ayanami Rei.Obviously this had a huge impact on how merchandise and multimedia works operated. It gets to the point that "One might argue that the original TV series of Evangelion continued to function as an entry into the database, if not into a grand narrative." There is also a note that reads:
>it was with the boom of interest in the anime series Neon Genesis Evangelion in 1995–96, and the franchise is spawned, that otaku culture transcended the confines of cult-like fandom to become a mass social phenomenon.Of course, part of the database and its postmodernism in Azuma's terms is greatly tied to the creation of derivative works, which blur the line between the original and everything after it. This circles all the way back to the TV ending's fan reaction as mentioned by Saitō and quoted in
>>112895.
Later on, about Rei and her clones:
>The emergence of Ayanami Rei did not influence many authors so much as change the rules of the moe-elements sustaining otaku culture. As a result, even those authors who were not deliberately thinking of Evangelion unconsciously began to produce characters closely resembling Rei, using newly registered moe-elements (quiet personality, blue hair, white skin, mysterious power).Interestingly enough, throughout the whole book he seems kind of disgusted with otaku culture in general, or at least that's what it seemed like to me. His arguments make it look like its logical outcome is gacha as we know it today, which I don't disagree with. But that's a topic for another day, I'd rather stop for now.
Had to read another hundred pages for this, but I think it's comprehensive enough. Gotta say, I learned a lot. Hope it proves satisfactory for everyone involved, as a companion to the previously shared opinions of creators, statistics on the series' reach, and how it became
the highest-selling TV anime of all time by an incredibly large margin (nearly twice that of the second spot, the original Gundam, and with quintuple average yearly sales) in
just four years. Satisfactory for everyone except you, V. You should go buy a bucket of chum bait and choke on it, dumbass. Bakayarou. Aho.
No.113189
>>113181Great post, but you're incorrectly assuming that everyone who participates in discussions like this is interested in learning more about the subculture, and as we can see from this thread that's hardly true. Lots of people are perfectly content limiting the extent of their involvement with otaku culture to torrenting anime, reading scanlations on mangadex and saving images from danbooru. And that's fine really, I just wish they had enough self-awareness and humility to realize how that also heavily limits their perspective.
No.113191
>>113189I'll be honest: at first I was fairly skeptical of this stuff. It was a grand claim, I wasn't informed about it at all, and there's nothing more polarizing than Eva. Fragments of quotes and data points are the conspiratard's weapons of choice, so it's easy to distrust, especially when dealing with a language that's so often as badly translated as Jap is. I assume this is a widely shared attitude. Professional sources with a cohesive message in English are what worked for me, and judging from the replies pre-2nd-derailment, they work for others too.
Anyways, couldn't have done this without you. Not sure I'd even heard of sekai-kei before this thread. Thank you, genuinely.
No.113196
Nobody ever gets disgusted by otaku culture for the correct reason: turning consumerism into an identity if not religion
No.113199
>>113196typically the ones that make that point are commies but since consumerism is a totally pervasive thing they'd rather talk about other stuff
No.113205
>>113074Those statistics are fairly similar to
>>112951Also EVA is not the highest selling anime any more, that's Uma Musume now.
No.113206
>>113181It's far from satisfactory for me as well. In fact all you are doing is wasting a lot of words to bring up a small subgenre already mentioned.
As for Rei, I disagree with that as well as that archetype existed before Rei and Rei is not even a very good example of it. Rei is more of a 'broken experimental creation' archetype and they usually don't even have blue hair they usually have grey or white hair.
>>113196I don't really see an issue with it. But then of course I am biased in this as I myself buy a lot of Otaku merchandise.
Also from an economic perspective consumerism is good, particularly consumerism of this kind as it's a highly value added industry and it's also heavily tied into the service economy which is what most developed economies revolve around.
And it benefits the companies producing anime as well so that's good too.
No.113220
>>113199There are few subcultures as ruggedly capitalist as actual, local aniotas. I really doubt this level of consumerism is as pervasive in most other subcultures aside from maybe sports fandom (although I guess it depends on the sport), beauty, western Disney fandom and of course any hobby based around collecting. I will give otaku worldwide this though, they're the only one of the group I've seen justify it, even happening in this thread. This isn't surprising as the Japanese tend to lean right but I respect it, as most people tend to be like "Yeah, it is but I'm not that far gone/that bad" etc.
I've even seen a post here suggesting that anime was a NATO operation to make young people less likely to support china
No.113237
>>113206I just can't see why I should take your word over that of a dozen Japanese experts who lived through it. It's said so matter-of-factly that you'd need some extreme evidence to take this denial seriously.
Like when you say "wasting" even though it's three short paragraphs glossing over most of a 37 pages long article, going against explicit statements, and ignoring the middle part completely. It's a blunt display of bias from your part.
No.113238
>>113237No no, you don't understand, you
still haven't disproven the very real possibility that all of these people are wrong/lying/conspiring, and that a random imageboard monolingual is more credible and knowledgeable than all of them.
No.113239
>>113237I have already replied to those quotes, if you do not want to engage with what I have said then that is on you. And repeating the appeal to authority fallacy does not help.
Which middle part am I supposed to be missing that you think is so important? If it looks like I am ignoring stuff, I'm not I just don't have the energy to reply to everything you write paragraph by paragraph when I have either already addressed it or don't see it as important. If you feel that I have missed something important that has not been addressed then point it out, claiming that I have ignored it but not saying what it is and calling me biased does not actually help in any way.
>>113238When you say things like that all it does is make you look like you've lost.
No.113240
>>113239What is there to lose? It's a discussion, and most people participating in it seem to be actually interested in learning and sharing knowledge.
No.113241
>>113239At this point there's only one thing left for me to say:
sigh.
No.113242
>>113240Maybe lost was phrasing it the wrong way.
But anyway how is
>>113238 either a discussion or anything that would display an interest in learning or sharing knowledge?
No.113251
reminder that authorities exist for a reason
relying on them isn't automatically fallacious
No.113261
In Japan it's different OK, but in the UK academics writing about (local!) subcultures have a spotty history albeit usually not out of malice! You have to understand the skepticism somewhat right?
No.113262
>>113251It depends on how you use them.
It becomes a fallacy when the fact that they are an authority is your argument in and of itself.
No.113263
they certainly trump paranoia
No.113264
Unless it is Red China, where the authorities promote paranoia
No.113265
It's a fallacy when said authority doesn't have relevant expertise in the field you're talking about. Thinking the opinions of authorities with relevant expertise are not worth more than any other opinion just because authorities are fallible is also fallacious thinking.
No.113267
>>113265That's a fallacy too but not the fallacy in question.